Playing hard or playing dirty?

[jpalexa]

Hey, I respect and pull for Derek Jeter as much as anyone, but he did TWO things in Game Five that chapped my a$$:

(1) Jeter on first, batter hits a grounder to second baseman. Counsell has to charge up through the baseline to get the ball, and as Jeter is running, Jeter blatantly throws his arms and elbows into Counsell (in an effort to knock the ball loose?). Counsell tags Jeter and throws on to first to complete the double play. Okay, so no harm done, but if I am umping, I whistle the play dead and make a point of calling Jeter *and* the batter out for Jeter's interference.

(2) Later in the game, Womack (I think) steals second. Jeter covers on the throw (which Posada bounces into center field). Womack slides into second, and as he pops up to go to third on the bad throw, it appeared that Jeter intentionally tried to hold Womack. (Granted, this one was less blatant than the thing with Counsell...but I still felt intent.) Womack gets into third safely. Again, no harm done, but once again, if I am umping, I make a point of announcing that Womack gets third automatically because of Jeter's obstruction.

I am a big Derek Jeter fan -- and even though I pull for the Braves, I am rooting like hell for the Yankees to win another WS. But I like to think I am a fan of Baseball first, and because of that, I hate it when I see this cheap -- dirty -- brand of baseball being played. By a team that doesn't need to do it; by a guy who doesn't need to do it. Play hard, play gritty -- but play fair and in the spirit of the game. Or at least realize that kids are watching.

Poor form from a guy I thought had a little more class.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Personally, JP, I think you are over-reacting a tad. Just my take. Dirty is not a word I would apply, maybe cheap is a little better. Then again, cheap and dirty could be the same. I don't know...I guess I did not react as strongly as you.

A little , but with respect to not playing hard, what is up with Bernie? Inexcusable.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Personally, JP, I think you are over-reacting a tad. Just my take. Dirty is not a word I would apply, maybe cheap is a little better. Then again, cheap and dirty could be the same. I don't know...I guess I did not react as strongly as you.

Yeah, probably just over-reacting. I dunno. Remember, I *am* a Baseball Curmudgeon!

It was just something that I would almost expect from an Oakland Raider or Florida State Seminole or that jerk hockey player (Brashear?)...but not a New York Yankee.

Then again, Roger Clemens....

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by jpalexa
Then again, Roger Clemens....

Right on, brother. Fight the good fight.

[b-ball-lunachik]

i don't know jpalexa -- the announcers said he was doing what he's supposed to do in trying to knock the ball out of Counsell's glove in that situation...is it that much difference than a collision at home plate, or when a runner is 5 ft off the bag trying to break up the double play? that one didn't bother me...

The one where he hooked his arm around Womack I thought was a little more "dirty" if you want to call it that...the guy was going to be safe anyway so I don't know why he even tried that move...

As for Bernie -- I love Bernie Williams but there are times where he's not been running out of the box lately -- but there are a bunch of them that do that, so to single him out is tough -- I guess it just bothers me because he ALWAYS used to run out of the box hard on every play...there are also times I think he takes too long getting the ball in and his arm isn't the strongest to begin with -- he's always done that...

But what's bothering me lately is when did he become such a baby at the plate? Is it me or is he arguing every call? I know the umpiring hasn't been stellar, but aside from a bit in the El Duque/Schilling game, it's been equally bad for both teams...

All in all, I love Bernie and the good always outweighs the bad, but he's been bothering me a bit lately...I'm just glad we're winning right now and hope none of those things come back to haunt us in the next couple days...

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
But what's bothering me lately is when did he become such a baby at the plate? Is it me or is he arguing every call?

Someone has to take O'Neill's place as Team Baby for next year.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by jpalexa


Yeah, probably just over-reacting. I dunno. Remember, I *am* a Baseball Curmudgeon!

It was just something that I would almost expect from an Oakland Raider or Florida State Seminole or that jerk hockey player (Brashear?)...but not a New York Yankee.

Then again, Roger Clemens....

do you mean Tie Domi? Now that is a jerk hockey player...or I could come up with a few other names...I'm a Devil fan, and I'd still like to have a chance to take a cheap shot at Domi myself!!

And Roger Clemens is not a dirty player...

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Someone has to take O'Neill's place as Team Baby for next year.

They're already on it - - - heard the Yankees are attempting to lure either Gary Carter, Lenny Dykstra, Howard Johnson or Gregg Jefferies out of retirement to fill the role of Team Baby.

[NetShrine]

OK, on to Jeter and Bernie - - -

Jeter was not dirty or cheap - - - the block on Counsel is how players are taught top handle that situation. The Womack tangle was incidental and did not prohibit him from getting to 3rd. If either play was not legit, the ump would have made the call.

Bernie, well, if you put Bernie's brain in a bird, the bird would fly backwards. I root for the guy - and have been following his career closely since 1991 - put, despite his talent, he has no feel for the game whatsoever. He's clueless, IMHO. And, after being in the bigs for part of 11 seasons, if he doesn't get it now, he never will. He's a space cadet. Doesn't make him a bad person - - just means he'll always do stupid things, at times, on the field.

That all said, Yanks have no one else to stand out in CF - and, there are few good CF in the AL period - - so, I'm happy he's on the team.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by NetShrine
<snip>

Jeter was not dirty or cheap - - - the block on Counsel is how players are taught to handle that situation. The Womack tangle was incidental and did not prohibit him from getting to 3rd. If either play was not legit, the ump would have made the call.

<snip>

Gotta disagree. Jeter's "plays" were, in my view, intentionally illegal...and that makes them dirty, in my dictionary. ("Cheap", and in "cheapshot" implies more of a sneaky, cowardly, dishonorable intent to hurt someone else (a la Domi) -- I don't think Jeter was doing that.)

The definition for interference is clear: "Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play." The "block" Jeter tried to lay on Counsell is addressed specifically in rule 7.09(g): "If, in the judgment of the umpire, a base runner willfully and deliberately interferes with a batted ball or a fielder in the act of fielding a batted ball with the obvious intent to break up a double play, the ball is dead. The umpire shall call the runner out for interference and also call out the batter runner because of the action of his teammate."

Being "taught to handle the situation that way" is absolutely no excuse, in my opinion. And as far as b-ball-lunachik's assertion that it is no different than when a guy slides 5 feet off the bag at second to break it up -- she is right: that, too, is illegal, according to baseball's own rules.

(I am confused, I admit, about the whole bowling over the catcher to get to home plate thing. I never *did* understand why that was legal and doing the same at any other base -- or in the basepaths -- was different (crashing into the first baseman would be very easy and effective). But it *is* different, and that is my point.)

You want to slide hard -- that's great. I applaud that kind of good, hard-nosed baseball. You come into a guy pushing and raising your elbows -- shame on you.

As far as Jeter's "hook" of Womack at second, I didn't see it as incidental (though, I admit, it was less blatant and would be more open to debate). *I* (and McCarver) saw intent in Jeter's actions -- and the fact that Womack was still safe at third (which would have been automatically his according to the rules anyway) doesn't excuse Jeter from his actions.

Hey, this isn't a Jeter thing. As I have stated, he is one of my favorite players. I just don't appreciate *anyone* having done it...and having gotten off scot free. He should have at least been called on it. Consider this my calling him on it. It is my duty as Baseball Curmudgeon.

Oh, and as far as the "ump would have made the call" -- yeah, right. How often does the ump make the right call on the baserunner-not-running-in-the-lane-down-to-first play? Maybe because the plays involving Jeter's illegalites didn't result in different outcomes caused the umps to say nothing. Maybe the umps didn't call anything because it is a World Series game and this is just a petty bitch by the Baseball Curmudgeon in Atlanta. Like I am sure Jeter cares that I took note of it!

[CubFan7125]

Originally posted by NetShrine


They're already on it - - - heard the Yankees are attempting to lure either Gary Carter, Lenny Dykstra, Howard Johnson or Gregg Jefferies out of retirement to fill the role of Team Baby.

Is it just me or is Net implying that the biggest babys play for the Mets.

LOL

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by CubFan7125
Is it just me or is Net implying that the biggest babys play for the Mets.

LOL

Can't even compare the two. O'Neill is off the charts compared to the guys Net names.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Can't even compare the two. O'Neill is off the charts compared to the guys Net names.

I don't find O'Neill a baby...I just prefer to call him passionate!!

As for the list Net gave, I don't know...Jeffries was a huge baby and I think pretty hated amongst his teammates, no? I thought I remember stories of his teammates telling him to get on the wrong bus at the Split Squad games in ST just to get him in trouble and because they didn't want to be on the bus with him that long...

Anyway, one of the biggest babies in all of sports was once a Met....Mr Everett himself...don't get me started on that ass...

[BuzzBuzzard]

Not even worth continuing this one any more. I will throw my arms up and agree that every Met is a world class baby. 25 adolescents, nothing more. Thanks everyone for pointing that out to me.

Carl Everrett is not a baby. He's a F'ing lunatic. Big difference.

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Not even worth continuing this one any more. I will throw my arms up and agree that every Met is a world class baby. 25 adolescents, nothing more. Thanks everyone for pointing that out to me.

Carl Everrett is not a baby. He's a F'ing lunatic. Big difference.

Thanks for tha laugh....now I need to change my pants!