The "Lou" Factor?

[SmedIndy]

Here's one to debate - I've already sparred a bit with Max on Lou Piniella at Tampa Bay - so I'll call it the "Lou Factor".

Do modern day managers matter? Not just a few games, but can they impact a team significantly in the 10 game or more range?

Plunk someone like Dusty Baker or Joe Torre in Milwaukee or Kansas City - could he make them contenders, or at least .500 teams?

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by SmedIndy

Plunk someone like Dusty Baker or Joe Torre in Milwaukee or Kansas City - could he make them contenders, or at least .500 teams?

Unfortunately it would take more than 10 games to make either the Royals or Brewers a contender or .500 team!

I think managers do matter. I think that the way a manager handles his team and provides an environment where players feel comfortable is more important than game strategy.

[KCBOOMER]

Managers matter somewhat but it is much more important to have the horses. It is too easy to confuse a poor manager who has great horses and great manager who has poor horses.

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Managers matter somewhat but it is much more important to have the horses. It is too easy to confuse a poor manager who has great horses and great manager who has poor horses.

The truly great managers can get their horses to run a little faster. But no manager can make a mule ran faster than a horse. I believe that Sparky Anderson had a big affect on his teams. He did it by deflecting attention and pressure from his players. He did it by making sure that his players knew he would support them if they did their job.

[SmedIndy]

I think my problem is that if the pieces were in place, just not ready, and a manager comes in and wins, more credit than deserved is given to the manager.

Torre did some good work in Atlanta and St. Louis, but wasn't seen as a good manager until he came to NY.

[poorme]

i suppose the difference between the absolute best and worst managers could be 8-10 games. maybe.

[JamesI]

ten games is pushing a manager's affect. If Torre was in Baltimore, Milwuakee, KC. would that make them winners? No. Would the current managers of the Orioles, Brewers, Tigers, Royals, win with the Yankees yes.

[satchel]

I agree that a manager probably can't make a 10 game difference over a season.

But if a manager makes a 2-3 game difference, that can mean the difference between a season that ends in September and one that continues into October.

And if that manager makes even a one game difference in October, that can be the difference between winning the championship and going home empty-handed.

However, there are so many other variables that can make a difference of a few games that it's hard to isolate the effects that are due to a manager and those that are not.

[pathogan]

...and he would be working in Sears by the end of the season along with any other mgr in history. Mgr matter, but far far far less than in football.Or basketball

[Craig S.]

Even the best make only a few games worth of difference over a season. Sure, it could be important if you're managing a contender, but Lou Piniella won't win in Tampa any more than Joe Torre would win in Milwaukee.

[Max Power]

This season may flush out the theory - - with so many "name" managers taking over teams that had bad seasons - - Piniella, Baker, Showalter, Howe, etc.

Personally, just by gut, I think the MGR that can make a 10-game difference on a team is an extreme rare and unique bird - - like Billy Martin. Of all the current MGRs, only Piniella has schooled under Martin. (At least I think he's the only one?)

So, to answer the questions: Do modern day managers matter? Not just a few games, but can they impact a team significantly in the 10 game or more range?

Somewhat.
Probably only Lou, IMHO.

[sweaver]

This goes in a bit with the "chemistry" argument that I always pooh-pooh. A manager can help. But like Satch says, it's more 2-3 games than more. A rare manager, in a rare season, could make a 10-game difference. But Lou's gonna see the basement this year, he just doesn't have the horses.

[Skip]

Not to state the obvious, but a manager can make a bigger difference - perhaps 8-10 games or more - on a really shot team. The effects of improved morale, teamwork, fundamentals, etc. are going to have a much bigger impact on a 60-102 team than on a 81-81 team. I have no problem at all thinking that a manager alone, with support from the front office, can make the former team improve from 42 below .500 to a 65-97 (32 below) or even a 70-92 (22 below) record.

[LeGrandOrange]

Any one of us can manage the Yankees to 90 wins.

In the real world, managers do play a part. I mean, if you looked at the opening day roster of the Anaheim Angels last year, would you have thought of them as World Series calibre? They didn't win it because of the Rally Monkey or New Syndrome(tm), Mike Scioscia won it for them. Yeah, it took 3 seasons for it to come together...but Scioscia probably needed to take that long to get it going with his team. I don't believe they were exponentially better from a talent standpoint from 2001.

A good manager gets a team focused and gets them able to play through anything, LaRussa in Saint Louis last year for example. A bad manager causes ffff--friggin' anarchy. Bobby Valentine for example. Yes, he was a great manager in 2000. In 2002, he had Vaughn, Alomar, and all this other great new stuff, and they were supposed to be a great team. They brought up the rear despite great talent. Why else was he fired?

Many other examples abound.

Of course, the true effect can be debatable at times...

[satchel]

Originally posted by Max Power
Do modern day managers matter? Not just a few games, but can they impact a team significantly in the 10 game or more range?

Sorry to labor this point, but a manager doesn't need to make a 10 game difference to matter; he need only make a 2-3 game difference for the reasons I stated above.

But if Skip's right, and a manager can make a 10 game difference on a crappy team, well, I'm not sure anyone will notice if a team that's otherwise 60-102 ends up 70-92.