Are Center Fielders underrated?

[WiredTiger]

Are we shortchanging center fielders when it comes to giving them due for their defense? On the defensive spectrum that Bill James espouses CF is closer to second base than it is to the corner outfield postions.

Are guys like Chet Lemon and Brett Butler underrated? Should we be judging them more like 2b and ss instead of LF and RF? How big a gap is there between CF and 2B?

[ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]

[SmedIndy]

I do think CF are underrated - but so are most guys who don't hit for power.

Chicks (and sportswriters) dig the long ball.

[JamesI]

I agree somewhat. But centerfielders are no more underrated than thirdbaseman, even have an advantage since Gold Gloves (which writers find important) usually go to all center fielders.

[KCBOOMER]

I don't think they are underrated. Can you think of an HoF position whose top five matches Mays-Cobb-Mantle-Speaker-DiMaggio???

It is an old baseball cliche that you have to be strong up the middle (c-ss-cf-2b). And you don't get to be an old baseball cliche without respect.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

The Defensive Win Shares formula assumes that centerfielders make as many plays, on average, as the other two outfielder combined; the formula includes a weighted "Range Bonus" for just that position. Otherwise, the outfielders are lumped together since, well, they all do the same things defensively: putouts, assists and errors.

If anything, a centerfielder is overrated defensively, as far as the impact on winning games is concerned -- at least by people who don't buy into the defensive Win Shares concept. Bottom line, a clumsy leftfielder who gets on base will be of greater value than a fleet centerfielder who doesn't; any '85 Royals fan will tell you that.

[pwdennis]

Cenerfield is not as important as SS or 2B. Its importance vis-a-vis these positions is a function of variables such as as the shape and area to be covered, height of the outfield fence, how well the ball carries, and the type of pitching staff he plays behind

Originally posted by JamesI
I agree somewhat. But centerfielders are no more underrated than thirdbaseman, even have an advantage since Gold Gloves (which writers find important) usually go to all center fielders.

Which of course needs to be changed, pronto. I don't know how anyone can think LF is the same as CF.

[sweaver]

I have a pet theory that outfield defense is more important than infield defense, so in a sense I agree with what you say, WT. But again, a CF who does not hit is of little use.

[Rajah]

Originally posted by sweaver
I have a pet theory that outfield defense is more important than infield defense, so in a sense I agree with what you say, WT. But again, a CF who does not hit is of little use.

I think the importance of outfield defense vs infield defense varies depending on the overall tendency of the team's staff (fly ball pitchers need good of D, groundball pitchers need good infield D.

That said, I think CF is very important defensively. To state it simply, could the Braves get by with Sheffield in right and Chipper in left without Andruw in the middle? Put an average centerfielder in there and a lot of Andruw's putouts would turn into hits.

Just to add something, I've noticed that a number of centerfielders played shortstop before reaching professional ball. Mickey Mantle and Joe DiMaggio come to mind. I also know that Andruw Jones has mentioned a desire to play shortstop. Perhaps good hit/lousy-to-average defensive shortstops make fine centerfielders?

[Rinkster]

I don't know if the term "underrated" is best used to describe center fielders. I think the problem that center fielders run into is similar the problem faced when judging third basemen: what are we looking for?

Let me explain.

At the beginning of professional baseball and lasting through the first quarter/half of the 20th century, a third baseman was judged as much for his defensive prowress as his offensive abilities. As a result, history holds many third basemen in high esteem that have less-than-eyepoping offensive statistics. Then came a greater appreciation of offense, and you began to find players with more power playing the position.

However, in between the Jimmy Collins-types and the Mike Schmidt-types were generations of third basemen that, frankly, few know what to do with, or feel comfortable ranking. Guys like Tommy Leach, Stan Hack, Bob Elliott, Ed Yost, Ken Boyer, Ron Santo, and Darrell Evans. You can argue, rather easily, that these guys are as well-qualified (and in many cases much more qualified) for the Hall of Fame than George Kell, Fred Lindstrom, and Pie Traynor. But...third baseman have such freaky "standards." The "game" or "style" played by third basemen have changed so dramatically throughout baseball history.

Centerfielders have a similar problem. If you take a look at the statistical "means" of HOF centerfielders through 2000, you will get this:

Hits: 2444
HR: 208
2B: 392
3B: 133
Total Bases: 3727
Runs: 1449
RBI: 1161
SB: 313
AVG: .317
SLG: .485


HOF centerfielders have the highest average mean of all positions in the categories of stolen bases (313), batting average (.317) and on-base percentage (.396). But it is true, it would be hard to find the top-five of any other position field a unit better that Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, Tris Speaker, and Joe DiMaggio. In terms of all-around talent, you can't come close. Yet...

It is hard to rank centerfielders because there are so many types of players allowed to roam centerfield.

Richie Ashburn is a HOF centerfielder, but if he would have had less speed and been forced to play left field, what kind of career would he have had? On the other hand, it would have been impossible for a Ralph Kiner or a Ted Williams to be a good center fielder...defensively.

Centerfielders, the ones in the Hall of Fame, usually fall into either the speed/batting average guys or the power guys, or the ones who did both, so much that if you look at ANY of the Hall of Fame center fielders, you won't find anyone who is similar to the center field HOF means I showed above.

Earl Averill is pretty close to the means.

Stat--HOF CF Mean--Earl Averill
Hits: 2444-2019
HR: 208--238
2B: 392--401
3B: 133--128
TB: 3727--3390
Runs: 1449--1224
RBI: 1161--1164
SB: 313--70
BAVG.: .317--.318
SLG: .485--.534

Not a bad match. But Averill was a slugger, not a base-stealer. The following is another player who matches the HOF means very well considering the poor hitting era he played in.

Stat--HOF CF Mean--Vada Pinson
Hits: 2444--2757
HR: 208--256
2B: 392--485
3B: 133--127
TB: 3727--4264
Runs: 1449--1366
RBI: 1161--1170
SB: 313--305
BAVG: .317--.286
SLG: .485--.442

Of course, the HOF CF Mean standard of triples and stolen bases are bolstered by the dead-ball era players.

Santo, Pinson--they both have a similar argument in this regard: They straddled the "standards" (however mythical) of those players in the HOF at their positions. Santo was not a slugger like Mathews or Schmidt, nor a high average guy or a good base runner like a Brett. He was no Brooks Robinson defensively, but was not that far behind Brooks.

I've said it before (actually Bill James said it before). When one looks for a HOF calibar player they should look first to a complete player. A lot of people have trouble with that. They think the first place one should look is just to find a great player. However, it is a lot easier to find greatness looking at a Brooks Robinson or a Lou Brock because there are a few things that stand out. It's hard to see that a Ron Santo or a Vada Pinson was pretty much equals as players because they could do many things well.

[Max Power]

I think certain types of CF are underrated for their defense - - the true elite ball hawks - - - the Devon White, Andruw Jones, Richie Ashburn, Torii Hunter, Gary Pettis types - - - - - players who have the ability to make the super play with the glove that can win or save a game.

Unless you have that head and shoulders level of fielding ability, and few do, and you're "just a CF" - then, given the chances per game and level of chances - I think the defensive spectrum is right (and not underrating).

[LisaG]

this here chick would rather watch torii hunter CATCH a homer than hit one. in fact, i'd rather watch ANY spectacular catch than see another homer. i know y'all be wondering what i think about my astro's new center fielder. lord have mercy. LOTS of mercy.

[pathogan]

Originally posted by Max Power
I think certain types of CF are underrated for their defense - - the true elite ball hawks - - - the Devon White, Andruw Jones, Richie Ashburn, Torii Hunter, Gary Pettis types - - - - - players who have the ability to make the super play with the glove that can win or save a game.

Unless you have that head and shoulders level of fielding ability, and few do, and you're "just a CF" - then, given the chances per game and level of chances - I think the defensive spectrum is right (and not underrating).

I agree