Third base? I don't know! How about these 10 guys?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Fuzz -

I see no way how you can discount Baker, and lump him into Pie Traynor.

Different eras, and Baker produced.

I probably expressed myself badly.

(A) I think Home Run Baker is a legit HOFer, and ranks #11. (I am willing to rank him higher; I just believe that the power guys have been seriously underrated.)

(B) I think Home Run Baker was a significantly better player than Pie Traynor. Baker was a Bill James Definition B HOFer, Traynor a Definition C HOFer.

(C) I think that Pie Traynor, while overrated, does belong in the HOF. He just doesn't belong there before Stan Hack, a comparable contemporary.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Fuzz -

I see no way how you can discount Baker, and lump him into Pie Traynor.

Different eras, and Baker produced.

An essay in Bill James' Win Shares discussed the changing of the defensive spectrum. Before 1935, 3B was to the right of 2B on the defensive spectrum, and the better defensive player was slotted at 3B. This changed as the importance and priority of the double play increased.

There were more slugging 2B before 1935 than after, and more glove men at 3B.

So I am willing to seriously reassess my ranking of Home Run Baker, and, to some extent, even Pie Traynor.

If they played in an era where 3B was to the right of 2B on the defensive spectrum, shouldn't pre-1935 3B be evaluated with post-1935 2B and vice versa?

I also think that the career of Larry Gardner deserves serious reassessment, based on the shifting of 3B on the defensive spectrum. Gardner's batting stats are such that, had he been a 2B, he would probably be in the HOF by the VC already.

[Jim Rice]

If we're talking about pure third basemen - excluding the guys who played huge chunks of games at other positions like Torre, Killebrew, Molitor and Rose, then there's a surprising name that hasn't been mentioned yet just beyond the top-10 Win Shares list.

1. Schmidt 467
2. Mathews 450
3. Brett 432
4. Boggs 394
5. Evans 363
6. Robinson 356
7. Santo 324
8. Nettles 321
9. Hack 316
10. Baker 301
11. Bob Elliott 287

Mr. Team is also 9th in OWP, 10th in RCAP, 11th in OPS, 12th in RCAA, 13th in RC, and 12th in RBI, despite having a comparatively short career - just 21st in games and 22nd in PA's.

No, Elliott probably isn't in the top-10, but he's one of just nine 3Bs to win an MVP, was a solid defender, a 7-time all-star and an excellent post-season player for a traditionally crappy team. He accomplished all of this while playing the majority of his career in neutral or subpar hitter's parks. He belongs in the conversation so I thought he should be mentioned.

[nightal]

1. Schmidt- Best hitter, best fielder.
2. Brett
3. Mathews
4. Baker
5. Boggs
6. Santo
7. Boyer
8. Killebrew( I think of him here also, if his defense would have been better, he would rate higher).
9. Robinson
10.Hack (talk about underrated)

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by nightal
1. Schmidt- Best hitter, best fielder

best hitter - probably
best fielder - never

No one who ever saw Brooks Robinson or Clete Boyer during their prime would ever consider Schmidt to be in their league. Smitty was a very good defensive 3B, not quite the top tier defensively

[nightal]

Opinions vary

I'll still take Schmidt

[JamesI]

Originally posted by pwdennis
best hitter - probably
best fielder - never

No one who ever saw Brooks Robinson or Clete Boyer during their prime would ever consider Schmidt to be in their league. Smitty was a very good defensive 3B, not quite the top tier defensively

I have to concur here. Schmidt was easily one of the best fielding third basemen ever, but he wasn't Brooks. Of course Brooks was no match for Schmidt offensively.

[BravesWin!]

I am just wondering why Chipper Jones name has not come up once...I know he has since moved to LF, but he is the only 3B with 6 consecutive 100 RBI seasons (1996-2001). In his 7 full years at 3B, he hit over .300 every year but one, and in that year he hit .295. He hit 227 HR, as well as driving in 737 runs. I am just wondering...maybe he is top 10- maybe he isn't....but i find it very curious that his name has not come up once....


andrew

[JamesI]

You will notice throught these threads that current players are not generally listed all that high (Ken Griffey syndrome).

Chipper, when his career is through, could make the top ten.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by BravesWin!
I am just wondering why Chipper Jones name has not come up once...I know he has since moved to LF, but he is the only 3B with 6 consecutive 100 RBI seasons (1996-2001). In his 7 full years at 3B, he hit over .300 every year but one, and in that year he hit .295. He hit 227 HR, as well as driving in 737 runs. I am just wondering...maybe he is top 10- maybe he isn't....but i find it very curious that his name has not come up once....


andrew

I thought of him. Since he just changed positions, and has not been shifted back to 3B, he may end his career with more games as an outfielder, so it's a little tough to rate him. (I would rate Jones as one of the top 10 3B on peak value.)

While I don't think it will happen here, Jones could come up with Dale Murphy syndrome. Many people would have easily projected Dale Murphy to be a HOF shoo-in after the 1987 season, but he experienced a sudden decline and ended his career with 399 home runs. The decline phase of a player's career does have a bearing as to where that player will end up, historically speaking.

[sweaver]

Here's a fuller list, with rank, name, WARP3 career, and top 3 Win Shares (peak) then total.
1. Mike Schmidt 166.5 112 278.5
2. Eddie Mathews 145.4 112 257.4
3. Wade Boggs 153.3 103 256.3
4. George Brett 143.8 106 249.8
5. Ron Santo 121.1 105 226.1
6. Paul Molitor 128.2 89 217.2
7. Brooks Robinson 125.1 85 210.1
8. Darrell Evans 122.3 87 209.3
9. Stan Hack 100.2 108 208.2
10. Graig Nettles 114.2 81 195.2
11. Frank Baker 77.7 113 190.7
12. Sal Bando 83.0 106 189.0
13. Buddy Bell 113.9 74 187.9
14. Ken Boyer 100.8 86 186.8
15. Robin Ventura 101.2 85 186.2
16. Ron Cey 102.2 80 182.2
17. Bob Elliott 94.1 83 177.1
18. Bobby Bonilla 82.9 91 173.9
19. Jimmy Collins 83.0 89 172.0
20. Matt Williams 86.2 83 169.2
21. Tim Wallach 92.7 76 168.7
22. Heinie Groh 71.8 95 166.8
23. Toby Harrah 82.7 84 166.7
24. Gary Gaetti 94.7 63 157.7
25. Chipper Jones 66.1 90 156.1
26. Al Rosen 53.1 102 155.1
27. Eddie Yost 75.3 78 153.8
28. Lave Cross 80.9 69 149.9
29. Pie Traynor 66.1 80 146.1

[Rinkster]

I don't see how Boggs could rank above Brett. I'd take Brett over Boggs any day of the week.

[sweaver]

A lot of it is Brett's injury record. He missed a lot of time. If you could count on him in the lineup every day, I'd take Brett, but overall Boggs gets ahead of him.

Surprised me too. I did find an error, as on my original list I had Boggs ahead of Mathews, but had added wrong.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by sweaver
A lot of it is Brett's injury record. He missed a lot of time. If you could count on him in the lineup every day, I'd take Brett, but overall Boggs gets ahead of him.

Surprised me too. I did find an error, as on my original list I had Boggs ahead of Mathews, but had added wrong.

I'm surprised Boggs and Mathews are that close.

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by Rinkster
I don't see how Boggs could rank above Brett. I'd take Brett over Boggs any day of the week.

I am not surprised that Boggs rates ahead of Brett. With any luck he might have ranked above any 3B. Boggs belonged in the bigs 2.5 seasons before he actuially got there. This foolishness on the part of the Bosox probably prevented Boggs from being the all-time 3B leader in Win Shares.

Since Boggs was not lucky, I think his durability had something to do him ranking ahead of Brett. Boggs came up in mid-season 1982 and played 104 games. From 1983 to 1993 Boggs never appeared in fewer than 143 games. After 1993 Boggs had difficulties in staying healthy

Brett had only 9 seasons (out of 21) in which he appeared in 140+ games, although I suppose he might have gotten there during the strike-shortened 1981 season. Brett only appeared at 3B in 1692 games (with 967 games at DH & 1B) as opposed to Boggs' service in 2215 games as a third sacker. Brett's frequent injuries led him to have a very up and down pattern to his career. Boggs had an 10 (consecutive) year run as a great player, after which point he had less value.

Brett's best seasons were better than Boggs' best seasons. In the black ink and HOF standards tests they are remarkably similar. Brett has an edge in the gray ink test and Boggs has a bigger edge in the HOF monitor