No respect for the 80s

[pwdennis]

An interesting article from Jayson Stark


http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/stark...n/1488642.html

[Skip]

'Twould help if you'd add some commentary to start things off.

[KCBOOMER]

I read Stark's article and couldn't get too fired up about it.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Some observations:

1. There are nine (9) players enshrined in the HOF that piled up significant HOF credentials during the 1980s. These players are Mike Schmidt, Nolan Ryan, George Brett, Robin Yount, Kirby Puckett, Carlton Fisk, Gary Carter, Ozzie Smith, and Eddie Murray.

2. There are five (5) players that come to mind that are likely to be 1st ballot HOFers that are not yet eligible for the HOF. These players are Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, Rickey Henderson, Roger Clemens, and Tim Raines. (Raines is a 1st ballot guy, IMO, so I'll list him here; I sense his stock is rising, but that's just a hunch for now.)

3. First ballot rejection of seemingly automatic picks is not as uncommon as one would think. Yogi Berra was a second-ballot pick, as was Whitey Ford. Gary Carter has been discussed here at some length. Phil Niekro and Don Sutton won THREE HUNDRED GAMES EACH, but had to wait. Eddie Mathews, who hit 512 HRs in his career, and who was, without question, the greatest third baseman who ever lived at the time of his retirement, had to wait FIVE YEARS AFTER BECOMING ELIGIBLE before being elected.

4. If Mr. Stark wants to check out the stars who "dominated the '80s", he needs to check out observations 1 & 2 on my list here. Ryne Sandberg was a dominant player, yes, and it is ridiculous that he was not tapped. Mattingly and Murphy were dominant for a short period of time (about 6 years for Murphy and about 5 years for Mattingly) but for the rest of the time, they were good, but not great.

5. The list Mr. Stark cites is a bit scant on awards. Aside from Sandberg, the one injustice, there is one Cy Young Award(Sutter, in 1978, no less), and four (4) MVP awards (Murphy, 1982, 1983), Mattingly (1985), and Dawson (1987). Dawson's MVP selection has been sabermetrically scrutinized in the past; other than HRs and RBIs (in which he led the league), Dawson had one of the lesser MVP seasons of the 1980s (his OPS and Power/Speed numbers were not among his best in 1987; he was a slugger with bad knees taking advantage of a new-found hitter's park).

6. In any decade, the stars that Mr. Stark cites, with the exception of Sandberg, are the type that are usually enshrined by the Veterans' Committee anyway. From the 1950s, the VC elected Larry Doby, Jim Bunning, Richie Ashburn, Phil Rizzuto, Pee Wee Reese, and Red Schoendienst. From the 1960s, the VC has tapped Orlando Cepeda, Jim Bunning, and Bill Mazeroski, with Ron Santo probably on the way.

The VC is willing to recognize several types of players that the writers tend to not recognize:

(A) Players with records per 162 games that are impressive, but who had short careers (Ashburn, Doby).

(B) Players who would ordinarily be the best in the league at their position, but who weren't because of the presence of an unsusally talented star, or by a glut of talent at their position (Schoendienst, Ashburn).

(C) Outstanding glove men (Mazeroski, Reese, Rizzuto).

(D) Players who won key awards, but finished just under "milestones" all around (under 400 HRs, under .300 BA) for their careers (Cepeda).

(E) Players with "star" reputations not necessarily backed up by the numbers (Bunning, 224-184, with only one 20-win season, but a perfect game and several 19-win seasons).

(F) Players who were the best in the league at their position at a time when there was a dearth of talent at that position. (Mazeroski, possibly Bunning, while in the AL).

The players Jayson Stark cited are, IMO, typical VC selections. That's not a knock, just an observation. The VC will likely give Jack Morris more credit for the fact that he was a WINNING pitcher; that he could be counted on to out-duel the other guy. (This, BTW, is a skill that IS reflected in W-L records that is somewhat trivialized by sabermetricians who wanted to award Nolan Ryan the Cy Young award the year he went 8-16, but with all that "tough luck" and "quality starts".) The VC will likely remember that, for a period of time, Dale Murphy was, arguably, the best player in baseball; that Don Mattingly was, for a time, the best, as well.

I should also state here that I don't consider the closers "Big Stars". Valuble players, yes, but I do not recognize a reliever to be the same value as a starter for the simple reason that it is far more likely that the starter can do the closer's job than the closer can do the starter's job. Period.

[JamesI]

I think the 80s are less respected. Maybe the hall of fame voters are not too bad here, but the offensive explosion and the expansion in the late 90's have made the batter's stats not impressive (many people I know wanted to try to say Murray was not a hall of famer since he never hit 50 homers). 5 men rotations in the 80s lowered pitchers win totals, a very important stat to hall of fame voters.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by JamesI
I think the 80s are less respected. Maybe the hall of fame voters are not too bad here, but the offensive explosion and the expansion in the late 90's have made the batter's stats not impressive (many people I know wanted to try to say Murray was not a hall of famer since he never hit 50 homers). 5 men rotations in the 80s lowered pitchers win totals, a very important stat to hall of fame voters.

Part of the issue here is that there were no real eye-popping pitchers born between 1954 and 1958. Jack Morris (1956) is the best, followed by Dave Steib (1957), Dave Stewart (1957), Mario Soto (1956), Bob Welch (1956) and Scott MacGregor (1954). If I'm missing somebody, tell me; I can't think of him. The really outstanding, HOF-type pitchers didn't come into play until Clemens, Viola, Gooden, and Saberhagen came on the scene, and three of those four flamed out.

I'm forgetting Fernando, of course, whose career peak falls completely within the 1980s, but does anyone really believe he is a HOFer?

[Golden Bear]

Probably none of those you mention other than Morris -- who will probably make it eventually on his win total -- are a HOF.

Fernando has a shot on Fernando-mania, but the stats aren't there. There's a great write-up on him on Baseball Primer right now which posits that he's got a decent case based on the Keltner List.

http://www.baseballprimer.com/articl...-12-22_0.shtml

Of the others you mention, Gooden, Saberhagen, and Stieb will all have their backers, as will Orel Hershiser, but they're all extreme longshots. I could see maybe if I hold my nose on three of the four slipping in someday -- the case for Stieb is beyond me.

[Golden Bear]

I missed Stewart, who also has some fans for the Hall. He 's really only got four good seasons and some nice postseasons to point to; it's clearly not enough, in my view. And I love the guy; got his autograph as a kid. (Actually my little brother did, but I helped get his attention and call him over.)

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
Probably none of those you mention other than Morris -- who will probably make it eventually on his win total -- are a HOF.

Fernando has a shot on Fernando-mania, but the stats aren't there. There's a great write-up on him on Baseball Primer right now which posits that he's got a decent case based on the Keltner List.

http://www.baseballprimer.com/articl...-12-22_0.shtml

Of the others you mention, Gooden, Saberhagen, and Stieb will all have their backers, as will Orel Hershiser, but they're all extreme longshots. I could see maybe if I hold my nose on three of the four slipping in someday -- the case for Stieb is beyond me.

I agree with you that only Morris is a significant HOF candidate. I don't really see any of the others with a chance; not even Fernando. (Fernando's Keltner list qualifications are boosted by his performance in the strike-shortened 1981 season, where he won both the Rookie of the Year and Cy Young Awards, played on a World Champion, and racked up a lot of black ink. Had their been no strike, I predict that Fernando would have faded in the stretch, winning only the Rookie award, and losing a lot of his black and gray ink for that year.

I don't agree with your reservations about Steib. Although he falls short, Steib was on course to be the first starter to be elected to the HOF without a 20-game season had he not injured his arm. Steib's ERA was 0.76 below league, and would be even farther below league if he didn't try to pitch after the injury. Steib was, arguably, the best pitcher in the AL in 1984 (does anyone believe Willie Hernandez REALLY deserved the awards he received?). Had he stayed healthy enough to win, say, 240 games, and had he won a Cy Young Award, things would be different. He was on a path to one, and should have had the other, at the time of his arm injury.

[Golden Bear]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
I agree with you that only Morris is a significant HOF candidate. I don't really see any of the others with a chance; not even Fernando. (Fernando's Keltner list qualifications are boosted by his performance in the strike-shortened 1981 season, where he won both the Rookie of the Year and Cy Young Awards, played on a World Champion, and racked up a lot of black ink. Had their been no strike, I predict that Fernando would have faded in the stretch, winning only the Rookie award, and losing a lot of his black and gray ink for that year.

True. But there was a strike. Besides, while that was his best year, he did have others. If he'd gone 18-10 in a full season that year, it wouldn't change his statistical case much; he'd still be well short, but Fernando-mania would still have raged on.

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
I don't agree with your reservations about Steib. Although he falls short, Steib was on course to be the first starter to be elected to the HOF without a 20-game season had he not injured his arm. Steib's ERA was 0.76 below league, and would be even farther below league if he didn't try to pitch after the injury. Steib was, arguably, the best pitcher in the AL in 1984 (does anyone believe Willie Hernandez REALLY deserved the awards he received?). Had he stayed healthy enough to win, say, 240 games, and had he won a Cy Young Award, things would be different. He was on a path to one, and should have had the other, at the time of his arm injury.

But he did have the arm injury, and he ended up well, well short. He was 33 when his arm blew out; it's not at all unusual for a pitcher's productive career to wind up at that age. You're assuming him 64 wins in his mid-30's; it's possible, but far from probable. If his arm doesn't go, what says his knee doesn't? Or his back?

To me, Stieb's whole argument is tied up in his good ERA's. I don't know, that fails to impress me all that much, especially since he only did it over a decade or so (15-20 years, and we'll talk). Plus, he never had that signature season as the other guys did -- Gooden, Hershiser, Saberhagen, Fernando. He was very good for about 10 years -- that's good, but it's not enough. And you know I'm a softy.

I'm not backing any of these guys, really, but Stieb seems the weakest. Maybe it's some residual old-stat allegiance in me, but I have a hard time getting all aflutter over the ERA-plus of a pitcher who only won 18 games once and had a career record of 176-137 with 1669 K's. A lot of angels have to dance on the head of a pin to make that look like a Hall of Famer to me.

And in 1984, Hernandez won because there really wasn't a starter who stuck out, and Hernandez had more wins and a better ERA than Quiz. Among starters, sure you could make a case for Stieb, but you could make equal or better cases for Boddicker, Blyleven, Morris, or Bud Black. No sale here; there just wasn't a clear winner in 1984 -- it happens.

[Golden Bear]

Actually, I also think the hitters are getting shafted because their counting stats look low in today's offense-inflated environment. Up through about 1990, 30 HR in a season and 400 HR in a career was a big deal; now suddenly, it's hardly worthy of a shrug.

Further, they don't seem to be getting much credit for defense -- Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson, Dale Murphy, Dave Parker, Dewey Evans, Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Steve Garvey, Tony Fernandez, Alan Trammell, Sweet Lou Whitaker, Frank White, Bobby Grich, Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Gary Gaetti, Lance Parrish, Bob Boone, Tony Pena, and Ron Guidry were all perennial Gold Glovers, and some of these were historically great fielders. These aren't all HOF, but they were fine all around players who merit consideration.

But the writers greet this with a yawn, seemingly preferring today's one-dimensional Jose Canseco's, Juan Gonzalez's and Frank Thomas's who are butchers afield but who hit a few more homers in today's bandboxes. (Most of the fields during the 1990's were of the giant cement bowl type)

[pwdennis]

I agree that there didn't seem to be any pitchers from that half-generation that were able to sustain excellence over an extended period. As for the hitters, I do believe they have been given somewhat short shrift, particularly players like Rice, Dewey Evans and some of the others such as Trammel, Whitaker, and Sandburg.

Stieb played a good part of his career with poor teams or his W-L record would have been better - he was, I suppose, the Mel Stottlemyer of his generation but baseball is littered with such cases, like Mario Soto, Jose Rijo, Gary Nolan , Jim Maloney, Bob Veale

Originally posted by pwdennis
Stieb played a good part of his career with poor teams or his W-L record would have been better - he was, I suppose, the Mel Stottlemyer of his generation but baseball is littered with such cases, like Mario Soto, Jose Rijo, Gary Nolan , Jim Maloney, Bob Veale

Yes...and, unfortunately, four of your five examples there just happen to have been Reds.

[Max Power]

I don't think the '80's gets the shaft. The truly great players of the 1980's were: Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, George Brett, Tim Raines, Mike Schmidt, Eddie Murray, Dwight Evans, Robin Yount, Roger Clemens, and Dave Stieb.

All but Steib will either make the Cooperstown HOF or are in there already.

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by Max Power
I don't think the '80's gets the shaft. The truly great players of the 1980's were: Rickey Henderson, Wade Boggs, George Brett, Tim Raines, Mike Schmidt, Eddie Murray, Dwight Evans, Robin Yount, Roger Clemens, and Dave Stieb.

All but Steib will either make the Cooperstown HOF or are in there already.

I believe that you omitted one person from your list