Atlanta-San Francisco Trade

BravesWin! · 12-17-2002, 10:27 AM

Braves deal LHP Damian Moss and PTBNL to San Francisco for Russ Ortiz

Interesting Trade...Not crazy about giving up Moss...

any comments?>

KCBOOMER · 12-17-2002, 10:48 AM

BW, I'm with you. Why would you trade for a pitcher who is three years older and who after 4 years in the bigs seems to be a little above average. Moss seems to have a much brighter future than Ortiz. Moss has to be a lot cheaper, too, with only one ML season under his belt.

sweaver · 12-17-2002, 11:12 AM

The minor leaguer is Manuel Mateo, who pitched rookie ball last year. A long way away yet.

I understand this trade as the Braves wanting a horse, and the Giants wanting a lefty, and to get someone cheaper. I still don't know why they didn't get an outfielder. Maybe this makes salary room to sign a free agent outfielder.

LeGrandOrange · 12-17-2002, 11:30 AM

How much does Damian make in 2003?
That's all I wanna know. I'm just trying to see how good of a deal this is for Brian Sabean...

sweaver · 12-17-2002, 11:56 AM

According to Mr. Lee Sinins, Ortiz had 5 RSAA last year, Moss was at 14 RSAA.

qtlaw · 12-17-2002, 01:04 PM

Ugh! What a shame that a homegrown talent is traded to reduce dollars. Ortiz kept me on pins and needles at times but I never doubted his drive to win and his effort; that's a quality I find lacking more often today than in the past. Ortiz pitched the Giants to the brink and now he's jettisoned for a fifth starter, sad. Makes me remember Gaylord Perry for flamethrowin' Sam McDowell. A sad day for the Giants. I can only hope that Moss is a chip to use to get Giles? or some other slugger.

Sadaharu Oh · 12-17-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
How much does Damian make in 2003?
That's all I wanna know. I'm just trying to see how good of a deal this is for Brian Sabean...

Moss will be in his second year, so he's still at the minimum, right?

I don't like it much on the Braves side. OTOH, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out well for them. Both pitchers have poor control, but don't you think (or hope) that the Braves asked superman Mazzone if he could straighten Moss out? Maybe he wasn't a good student. And maybe they see something in Ortiz the is correctable.

The Braves have made errors, but whenever they acquire a pitcher, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how it works out. Despite Albie Lopez.

OaktownTribeFan · 12-17-2002, 02:49 PM

I don't see why any Giants' fan would be against this trade. Moss is a lefty, relatively young, 3.42 ERA.

Only drawback I can see is that he walks opposing hitters too much. He's still young enough to be coachable, though.

WiredTiger · 12-17-2002, 02:53 PM

I think I like the Giants side of this trade better. Moss has a decent chance of being just as good as Ortiz this year and he costs less money. Maybe the Braves figure that Ortiz + Mazzone > Moss - Mazzone

JamesI · 12-17-2002, 03:02 PM

I'd rather have Moss. He has much better potential.

Husier · 12-17-2002, 04:57 PM

Moss was almost unhittable at times, but his K-W ratio (111-89) is a concern, plus he had a rough September (3-1, 4.81, 44 H+W in 24 1-3 IP) ... and there's his spotty health history. I like him, but there are still some question marks ...

Fuzzy Bear · 12-17-2002, 07:29 PM

The deal makes sense because the Braves, despite losing Glavine, and despite being on the verge of losing Maddux, are under more pressure to win now!

John Burkett and Denny Neagle are two examples of pitchers who have had their best years under Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone. Ortiz is a good candidate to win 20 next year. He wouldn't be a good candidate anywhere else, IMO.

Gosfgiants · 12-17-2002, 09:42 PM

I like this trade, but I wish they would of gotten a slugger for Ortiz instead of a pitcher. Last year I felt that the Giants rotation was too right-handed. Now they have a nice 3 righty, 2 lefty rotation. I am betting that the Giants will try to move Livian Hernandez for a young bat next. This will plug the power hole in the lineup and allow a young starter (probably Ainsworth) to come up.

12-17-2002, 10:31 PM

This post actually weighs in on both the Ortiz-Moss trade and the Byrd acquisition. I find both deals very interesting. It looks like the Braves have just added a little over $9 million to next year's payroll. Somehow I think this means that they don't expect Maddux to return as a Brave. If he did, it would create some problems. Currently, the rotation looks to be Byrd, Hampton, Millwood, and Ortiz (I put them in alphabetical order since it's hard to say how Cox will pitch them) and Marquis as the fifth starter. If Maddux returns, one of the four will get the unenviable fifth starter spot. The reason why it's unenviable is that traditionally, the Braves have used the 5th starter more as a spot starter. Sometimes he'll pitch on four days rest, other times on nine days rest. That's primarily why the Braves' fifth starter has always struggled since he can't get into a comfortable pattern. So then the question becomes who gets the short straw? Of course, the Braves could make every pitcher pitch every fifth start as opposed to every fifth day. I'm not sure, however, if Maddux would be too happy with that.

Unless the Braves get some help in their lineup, I'm not sure if they'll be as good as last year. A lot will depend on how the "new Brave" pitchers do. Hampton is a gamble for next year. Byrd has had two good years in the last four. However, the years in between those good years were pretty pathetic. So he's a gamble as well. Ortiz looks like he'll have a solid year as he's done for the past four years. Millwood had a good year last year following a couple of really bad ones. Brave fans can only hope that he pitches like he did last year instead of the previous ones. Somehow, even with their age, at least for next year, I'd like to think that if they returned as Braves, one could pencil in Maddux and Glavine for another 15 - 18 wins each. That's what made them bonafide No.1 starters. There aren't too many guys that one could count on year in and year out for that kind of contribution. In short, I don't think the rotation will be as good as it was last year, but only time will tell. Of course, economics factored in and the Braves couldn't afford Glavine's price tag and may not be able to afford Maddux's.

If I were a Braves fan, I would now hope that the Braves take some of the money they would have paid Glavine or Maddux and go after someone like Jeff Kent. Or they could attempt to trade for Jose Vidro. The Braves OF is set. Yes, they could move Chipper back to third and try to trade for an outfielder, someone like Brian Giles. However, then they're still saddled with paying Vinny Castilla's salary and I'm sure no other team would want to take Castilla off the Braves' hands.

One more thing - I would have rather seen the Braves try to trade with the Expos for either Colon or Vazquez. Both truly have "light's out" kind of stuff. I know Vazquez didn't have as good a year last year, but he's still young and perhaps under Mazzone could really become a consistent, dominant pitcher.

Now I can't wait to see how everything else will play out and once that happens, let the season begin!

Sadaharu Oh · 12-18-2002, 12:00 AM

I'll still bet anyone that Maddux will return. We'll know Thursday, by which time he must accept arbitration or not.

12-17-2002, 10:27 AM	#1
BravesWin! All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta Posts: 392	Atlanta-San Francisco Trade Braves deal LHP Damian Moss and PTBNL to San Francisco for Russ Ortiz Interesting Trade...Not crazy about giving up Moss... any comments?>

12-17-2002, 10:48 AM	#2
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	BW, I'm with you. Why would you trade for a pitcher who is three years older and who after 4 years in the bigs seems to be a little above average. Moss seems to have a much brighter future than Ortiz. Moss has to be a lot cheaper, too, with only one ML season under his belt. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

12-17-2002, 09:42 PM	#13
Gosfgiants NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,136	I like this trade, but I wish they would of gotten a slugger for Ortiz instead of a pitcher. Last year I felt that the Giants rotation was too right-handed. Now they have a nice 3 righty, 2 lefty rotation. I am betting that the Giants will try to move Livian Hernandez for a young bat next. This will plug the power hole in the lineup and allow a young starter (probably Ainsworth) to come up. __________________ It'll always be Pacbell Park Beat LA!!!

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12-17-2002, 11:12 AM	#3
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	The minor leaguer is Manuel Mateo, who pitched rookie ball last year. A long way away yet. I understand this trade as the Braves wanting a horse, and the Giants wanting a lefty, and to get someone cheaper. I still don't know why they didn't get an outfielder. Maybe this makes salary room to sign a free agent outfielder.

12-17-2002, 11:30 AM	#4
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	How much does Damian make in 2003? That's all I wanna know. I'm just trying to see how good of a deal this is for Brian Sabean...

12-17-2002, 11:56 AM	#5
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	According to Mr. Lee Sinins, Ortiz had 5 RSAA last year, Moss was at 14 RSAA.

12-17-2002, 01:04 PM	#6
qtlaw Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: El Cerrito, CA Posts: 668	Ugh! What a shame that a homegrown talent is traded to reduce dollars. Ortiz kept me on pins and needles at times but I never doubted his drive to win and his effort; that's a quality I find lacking more often today than in the past. Ortiz pitched the Giants to the brink and now he's jettisoned for a fifth starter, sad. Makes me remember Gaylord Perry for flamethrowin' Sam McDowell. A sad day for the Giants. I can only hope that Moss is a chip to use to get Giles? or some other slugger.

12-17-2002, 02:49 PM	#8
OaktownTribeFan Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Bullpen Posts: 529	I don't see why any Giants' fan would be against this trade. Moss is a lefty, relatively young, 3.42 ERA. Only drawback I can see is that he walks opposing hitters too much. He's still young enough to be coachable, though.

12-17-2002, 02:53 PM	#9
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	I think I like the Giants side of this trade better. Moss has a decent chance of being just as good as Ortiz this year and he costs less money. Maybe the Braves figure that Ortiz + Mazzone > Moss - Mazzone

12-17-2002, 03:02 PM	#10
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I'd rather have Moss. He has much better potential.

12-17-2002, 04:57 PM	#11
Husier NetShrine All-Star Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 112	Moss was almost unhittable at times, but his K-W ratio (111-89) is a concern, plus he had a rough September (3-1, 4.81, 44 H+W in 24 1-3 IP) ... and there's his spotty health history. I like him, but there are still some question marks ...

12-17-2002, 07:29 PM	#12
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	The deal makes sense because the Braves, despite losing Glavine, and despite being on the verge of losing Maddux, are under more pressure to win now! John Burkett and Denny Neagle are two examples of pitchers who have had their best years under Bobby Cox and Leo Mazzone. Ortiz is a good candidate to win 20 next year. He wouldn't be a good candidate anywhere else, IMO.

12-17-2002, 10:31 PM	#14
Sopalt Posts: n/a	This post actually weighs in on both the Ortiz-Moss trade and the Byrd acquisition. I find both deals very interesting. It looks like the Braves have just added a little over $9 million to next year's payroll. Somehow I think this means that they don't expect Maddux to return as a Brave. If he did, it would create some problems. Currently, the rotation looks to be Byrd, Hampton, Millwood, and Ortiz (I put them in alphabetical order since it's hard to say how Cox will pitch them) and Marquis as the fifth starter. If Maddux returns, one of the four will get the unenviable fifth starter spot. The reason why it's unenviable is that traditionally, the Braves have used the 5th starter more as a spot starter. Sometimes he'll pitch on four days rest, other times on nine days rest. That's primarily why the Braves' fifth starter has always struggled since he can't get into a comfortable pattern. So then the question becomes who gets the short straw? Of course, the Braves could make every pitcher pitch every fifth start as opposed to every fifth day. I'm not sure, however, if Maddux would be too happy with that. Unless the Braves get some help in their lineup, I'm not sure if they'll be as good as last year. A lot will depend on how the "new Brave" pitchers do. Hampton is a gamble for next year. Byrd has had two good years in the last four. However, the years in between those good years were pretty pathetic. So he's a gamble as well. Ortiz looks like he'll have a solid year as he's done for the past four years. Millwood had a good year last year following a couple of really bad ones. Brave fans can only hope that he pitches like he did last year instead of the previous ones. Somehow, even with their age, at least for next year, I'd like to think that if they returned as Braves, one could pencil in Maddux and Glavine for another 15 - 18 wins each. That's what made them bonafide No.1 starters. There aren't too many guys that one could count on year in and year out for that kind of contribution. In short, I don't think the rotation will be as good as it was last year, but only time will tell. Of course, economics factored in and the Braves couldn't afford Glavine's price tag and may not be able to afford Maddux's. If I were a Braves fan, I would now hope that the Braves take some of the money they would have paid Glavine or Maddux and go after someone like Jeff Kent. Or they could attempt to trade for Jose Vidro. The Braves OF is set. Yes, they could move Chipper back to third and try to trade for an outfielder, someone like Brian Giles. However, then they're still saddled with paying Vinny Castilla's salary and I'm sure no other team would want to take Castilla off the Braves' hands. One more thing - I would have rather seen the Braves try to trade with the Expos for either Colon or Vazquez. Both truly have "light's out" kind of stuff. I know Vazquez didn't have as good a year last year, but he's still young and perhaps under Mazzone could really become a consistent, dominant pitcher. Now I can't wait to see how everything else will play out and once that happens, let the season begin!

12-18-2002, 12:00 AM	#15
Sadaharu Oh NetShrine Fan Favorite Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 93	I'll still bet anyone that Maddux will return. We'll know Thursday, by which time he must accept arbitration or not.

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