Dick Allen's HOF Case

[Fuzzy Bear]

Dick Allen has the highest total of Win Shares of any player on the HOF Vets Committee ballot.

I have advocated against Dick Allen's selection mainly because his disrutpive behavior, well-documented, did much to keep his teams in turmoil, and keep them from winning, to the point where he was a liability to his teams, despite his great ability and, yes, even great numbers.

On the other hand, Allen's first 5 seasons were played at 3B, adding to his value. If he had not injured his hand in a freak accident in 1967, and had remained at 3B with the Phillies, what would have become of Mike Schmidt? Would Dick Allen have been the greatest 3B of all time?

Allen was #1 in OPS on four (4) separate occasions. He lead the AL in HRs in 1972 and 1974 despite playing in Comiskey Park and "retiring" a month before the season ended, in 1974.

The Win Shares thing, however, is the biggest fly in my ointment. I stated that Allen kept his teams from winning, yet he has the most WIN (emphasis added) shares of anyone on the VC HOF ballot this year.

So, here's the question: Was Allen's behavior, antics, and the residue of his alcohol problems and possible emotional problems so destructive as to negate the benefit of his on-field performance, as evidenced by his stats? Or was the lack of success of his teams more a matter of his teams, by and large, stinking out loud? Did Allen keep the Phillies and White Sox from emerging; did he keep the Cards and Dodgers from winning their divisions, or were those teams just not that good? Did Dick Allen keep his teams from winning to the point where he is not deserving of HOF induction, regardless of Win Shares, and why?

[Max Power]

I can't help but think about Gary Sheffield when I hear Dick Allen. To date, their careers have been about the same. I think the Cooperstwon chances of one will likely depend on the other.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Max Power
I can't help but think about Gary Sheffield when I hear Dick Allen. To date, their careers have been about the same. I think the Cooperstown chances of one will likely depend on the other.

Sheffield and Allen have been linked by some, but it's not really fair to Sheffield.

1. Some of Sheffield's early career complaining sounded immature, but it had it's basis in fact. Sheffield complained that the black players on the early 1990s Brewers had to earn everything they got, but the white players just had to show up.
Gary was raked over the coals for that remark, but look at the rosters of the 1998-91 Brewers, check out who played and who sat, and tell me if he's right.

2. Allen actively divided clubhouses in ways that Sheffield never has. At every stop, there were pro-Dick and anti-Dick factions.

3. Allen routinely missed BP and even games due to drinking and other forms of malingering. He spontaneously retired during the last month of the 1974 season, before the Chisox were mathematically eliminated. Although there were reasons for this, not all of which were his fault, Allen developed an "All-for-Dick" attitude and persona that Sheffield never came near.

4. Sheffield has helped his teams win. The Padres improved when they acquired him, and he played on a World Champion with the Marlins. Allen never played on a division winner, until 1976, when he was past his prime.

5. Sheffield seems to have overcome much of the questionable behaviors and attitudes of his earlier career. Allen's got worse with time.

6. Allen had an alcohol-abuse problem that was well documented.

7. Allen was so hated by fans that they threw batteries and pennies at his head (in Philly during the 1969 season, his most tumutuous). Sheffield has never come close to arousing that sort of antipathy.

To be fair to Allen, he played for southern minor league teams, in an age of segregation, while young and away from home, often the only black player on the team. By many accounts I have read, this was a destructive experience. If he seemed paranoid and hostile during his career, the reaction to his behavior wasn't helpful in reducing that.

However, Allen was the negative focus of his teams in ways that I can't think of any other sports superstar being. The focus, IMO, kept his teams from winning, despite having in their lineup a player, such as Allen, who, unquestionably, had great talent.

I hope people will not be so unfair to Gary Sheffield as to compare him to Allen in that manner.

[Skip]

I too see the rationale behind comparisons of Sheffield and Allen, but think that Sheffield gets a raw, or at least overly generalized and negative, deal in such a comparison.

Not that I advocate either getting near the HOF without a ticket.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by Skip
Not that I advocate either getting near the HOF without a ticket.

Oh come on. Both Sheffield and Allen are allowed near the hall without a ticket. Inside is different.

[Skip]

Originally posted by JamesI
Oh come on. Both Sheffield and Allen are allowed near the hall without a ticket. Inside is different.

Yah ... perhaps Peter Edward will let them unpack crates of shirts and caps at his memorabilia booth down the street.

Shame on me ... again ... back to Dick Allen's marginal HOF case.

[Craig S.]

I would compare Allen favorably to Sheffield, although Gary obviously has time left. Even at that, however, I don't think Allen belongs. He seems a couple of steps short of consideration.

As for the poor attitude, I think it's a very valid point. I don't think the HOF should only be for World Series champs, but since the point of baseball is to win, anyone who actively works against that cause should not be enshrined.

[Max Power]

Fuzzy - was Sheffield a great person to have on the team in LA? He was a huge PITA there, IMHO. Back to Dick Allen - - the guy won an MVP and in "The Goose Is Loose" by Rich Gossage, Goose said (about Allen):

I'll let my tribute go at this: If I were to pick an "All-Teammate Team" for my career, I'd put Dick Allen at first base. (pg 30, hardcover ed.)

I went back now and looked at all the 1B that Gossage played with: Willie Stargell, Chris Chambliss, Bob Watson, Steve Garvey, Mark Grace, Will Clark, Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Tino Martinez top the list.

Gossage would rather have Dick Allen than any of those guys. That says a lot about Dick Allen for me.

[Skip]

That says I don't want Gossage as my GM to me.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by Skip
That says I don't want Gossage as my GM to me.

Me too. Allen over McGwire, Palmeiro, even Clark? No way.

[sweaver]

Allen was a truly great hitter, playing in a lot of pitchers' parks in a low-offsense era. He was a fearsome hitter, and widely respected by pitchers. He won an MVP award, for helping propel a stagnating White Sox team into 2nd place in 1972. When he joined a team, that team was expected to be propelled into contention, if not immediately to the top of the heap.

While many of those expectations may have been overblown, we must give them at least some consideration. Allen's only championship teams were the Phillies' division winners he was on in 1976, but he was only a supporting player then, no longer a star. This deserves consideration as well.

The question is, was Allen's influence as negative as Bill James and some others have held. There is evidence that it was. If it was, he has no business in the Hall.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

It's really hard (for those who remember him) to separate the man from his numbers.

His HoF standards are pretty good: the Black Ink and Gray Ink and HoF Monitor show that he compares to an "average" Hall of famer. With a third of his career in the pitcher's era, he missed out on 400 homers, even with his various physical and mental problems.

If he goes in, you might as well put Dave Kingman in, then Albert Belle, to represent the guys whose sheer numbers weren't enough to overcome what trouble they were in the clubhouse, unlike Cobb.

[Max Power]

More from Gossage on Allen:

It's a shame, but today's players have no idea about Dick Allen's ability. That's because he didn't suck up to the press like a lot of major leaguers do. He wasn't a quote machine. He didn't play the publicity game at all. His reticence pissed off many members of the press, so they made him out to be a bad guy, For the record, he wasn't.

It's just that Dick didn't suck up to anyone, period. He didn't possess an ounce of BS in his makeup. Dick shot straight and played baseball. He also studied the game intently. I can remember being in the dugout at times when some of the White Sox players would be horsing around, playing grab-ass and goofing around. Dick would pipe up with, "Cut the crap and get your heads into the game. Watch the pitcher. Learn something."

Allen played to win. The only stats that mattered to him were W's and L's - wins and losses. Many was the time he'd set up a pitcher by looking foolish on purpose. Early in the game, with the bases empty, Dick might let a pitcher make him look bad on a slider. Late in the game, with runners on base and the game hanging in the balance, Dick would come up again and the pitcher would say to himself, "Hey, this guy can't touch my slider."

So, here comes the slider, and there a slider would go - either smashed into the outfield wall or into the cheap seats.

- From, The Goose is Loose, hardcover, pages 27 and 28.

If that's "disrutpive behavior" (quoting Fuzzy) - what's a good team player and a leader?

[LeGrandOrange]

Dick is my kind of player then, 100% pure.
I don't care what the HOF standards and the HOF monitor says, they don't factor in his skill at the plate enough, and he was like 56% better than an average player at the plate. Last I heard, that was pretty *censored* good. So what if he couldn't play defense, even if he says he could play anywhere "except Philadelphia".

Allen is by no means marginal...he's controversial but sometimes players that are such feed off of it. And he did just that.
Given the high standards of Cooperstown, Allen is more than legitimate enough to get a plaque.
And also, why did we have to bring up Dave Kingman in this post? He was a one-dimensional slugger...all he did was hit homers. A plaque of Kong needs to stay as far away from Cooperstown as possible barring a massive expansion of the hall.
Allen, meanwhile, hit 32 points above the league average, had an OBP 54 points above the league average, and then of course had a SLG 206 points above the league average. I think that's pretty good. No one-dimensionality there.

If writers just dealt with the fact that he was his own person, he'd be a shoe-in.

[KCBOOMER]

Dick Allen was a clubhouse cancer of the worst sort. He didn't get traded five times because he was a wonderful teammate. It's also no accident that in 15 seasons his team won exactly one division title.

I wouldn't be surprised that he gets in the HoF someday. On paper he looks like one. He is one player Sabrmetrics gets wrong.