Pirates' offseason: If it's broke, fix it. - Page 2

sweaver · 01-30-2003, 09:58 PM

You'd prefer Morris, Williams, and uh, uh, uh.............?

The Astros could be better. Who else?

cubfan33 · 01-31-2003, 04:27 AM

Cubs are the clear leader in the division, pitching wise.

Wood, Prior, Clement, Zambrano, Estes with Cruz in the pen. Nasty and still with upside. This is a team that lost its ace in Lieber ... and got better!

The Pirates might have the second best. I really think Benson will be back to where he was (think Matt Morris), and I like Fogg a lot.

Astros have Oswalt and a lot of ifs. Cards have Morris and a lot of ifs. (I mean, cmon, ELDRED?) Brewers have Sheets and a lot of suck. Cincy has ... well, not much. Their ace is a recent closer and they're trying something new.

Doc Pontoon · 02-01-2003, 10:27 AM

Roy Oswalt is better than Mark Prior (and Kris Benson, of the Pirates, about whom this thread is). Wade Miller is better than Kerry Wood (and Kip Wells, ibid). Any other potential Houston starter is better than Estes. The number 5 starters are pick-'ems. Clement is a wild card, but his likely superiority to whichever Astro pitches third best certainly couldn't make up for the Astros superiority at every one of the other three obvious Astros edges.

Max Power · 02-01-2003, 10:30 AM

Let's not lose sight that this thread is about the Pirates.........thanks.

cubfan33 · 02-01-2003, 05:46 PM

I like Fogg better than Wells, so I'd compare him to Miller ... and there I see a tossup.

Oswalt has been better, but I dont know how long he'll be able to stay healthy. The Astros have success getting the short guys up to he bigs, but havent been able to keep any of them healthy since Ruhle left.

I'll stick with my Pirates as second best. The Astros just have too many unknowns, while the Buccos can cut guys like Jimmy Anderson.

I actually like the Pirates as a surprise team. Anyone with a decent rotation and a guy like Brian Giles can contend, esp in a weak division.

sweaver · 02-01-2003, 06:15 PM

Giles has publicly volunteered to go to center field, saying he feels more comfortable there than in left anyway. Given that, while he is stretched to cover CF, the Buccos should jump at the chance, since they have no one better to do the job. A defense-first guy on the order of a Shinjo to caddy for him in the late innings would be a good idea, and they can spread out their other guys. Giles in the middle of Stairs and Craig Wilson might be a defensive nightmare, but it would give the Pirates some pop in their OF.

cubfan33 · 02-01-2003, 08:34 PM

I'm of the opinion that if Giles wants CF, you give it to him - not because he's a star, but because there's a better chance to win. Giles immediately becomes the best CF in the league, offensively. Looking at his stats : http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/gilesbr02.shtml
he does seem better in CF.

A Stairs-Giles-Mackowiac/Wilson might be good, or there's still room for someone like Reggie Sanders at a desperation price or Rickey Henderson.

Doc Pontoon · 02-01-2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

I like Fogg better than Wells, so I'd compare him to Miller ... and there I see a tossup.

Well, Miller had a 18 RSAA in 2002. Wells had a 17, and Fogg had 0 (zero). Miller's exactly 3 months older than Fogg and has been a better-than-average major league starter for two years already, compared to Fogg's average status in a rotation for one year. I definitely don't see a tossup, especially as Fogg started out well and ended the season not-so-well.

Brian Giles is super-duper good. It's still crazy to think that John Hart traded him straight up for Ricardo Rincon.

cubfan33 · 02-02-2003, 12:10 PM

I like Fogg's upside and see Miller as about at the expected level. You do have great points as usual, Doc.

Giles for Rincon = Hafner for Diaz

Dizzy Dean · 02-02-2003, 02:59 PM

Will, I don't think you are giving enough credit to Miller. He is already one of the top pitchers in the NL. Fogg still has problems with the long ball and untill he gets his K/BB ratio up to 2.5, the dingers will kill him. Fogg in my mind will never be more than a back of the rotation pitcher. My humble predictions for 2003 30 starts each Miller (18W 2.97era 196k/76bb) Fogg (11W 4.87era 138k/71bb)/ The Pirates did pull off a nice trade in landing Fogg et al and I commend them for that. The Pirates look at lot like the Brewers.... at least the Bucs have a bonafide superstar in Giles.

cubfan33 · 02-02-2003, 08:31 PM

You're right ... my initial impressions were strong on Fogg, weak on Miller. I dont think the difference is as significant as the past data is - I still see Fogg as an upside guy and Miller as "at his level" - but Miller is better ... for now.

gyb13 · 02-03-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweaver
Giles has publicly volunteered to go to center field, saying he feels more comfortable there than in left anyway. Given that, while he is stretched to cover CF, the Buccos should jump at the chance, since they have no one better to do the job.

giles says that he is more comfortable at CF because of the big left-center gap at pnc...

sweaver · 02-10-2003, 01:40 PM

The Pirates have some reasons to be optimistic. Not of reaching the playoffs, but of reaching .500.

Brian Giles was the sole offensive force last year, but should have help this year. Aramis Ramirez figures to be better coming off an injury-plagued year, and hope continues for a Kendall recovery. Adding Matt Stairs in the OF mix should help as well.

On the mound, the Bucs are amassing some good arms. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg came in and pitched well last year, and Kris Benson is a year farther removed from his surgery. This should help, and give the Pirates a chance to win pretty much every day, based on their starting pitching.

Another hitter is sorely needed. This team will show improvement.

I predict the Pirates will win 75-80 games.

gyb13 · 02-19-2003, 10:46 PM

according to Stark, the Pirates are signing Reggie Sanders to a one yr, $1 mil deal to be their left fielder. Thus, Giles will shift to CF, and Stairs/Wilson will platoon rightfield....

ideally, though, I'd say they still need a true CF...then they can put Giles in LF, Sanders in RF, Wilson/Simon at 1B, Stairs on the bench, and release Young.

sweaver · 02-20-2003, 12:30 AM

A true CF would be great, but there seem to be a shortage of them right now, and there just aren't any good ones available.

Sanders boosts the Pirates lineup considerably (since he essentially takes Mackowiak's place, especially) and makes them a possibility for .500, IMO.

01-31-2003, 04:27 AM	#17
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Cubs Cubs are the clear leader in the division, pitching wise. Wood, Prior, Clement, Zambrano, Estes with Cruz in the pen. Nasty and still with upside. This is a team that lost its ace in Lieber ... and got better! The Pirates might have the second best. I really think Benson will be back to where he was (think Matt Morris), and I like Fogg a lot. Astros have Oswalt and a lot of ifs. Cards have Morris and a lot of ifs. (I mean, cmon, ELDRED?) Brewers have Sheets and a lot of suck. Cincy has ... well, not much. Their ace is a recent closer and they're trying something new. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

02-01-2003, 10:27 AM	#18
Doc Pontoon Membership Termed 5/26/03 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 230	Roy Oswalt is better than Mark Prior (and Kris Benson, of the Pirates, about whom this thread is). Wade Miller is better than Kerry Wood (and Kip Wells, ibid). Any other potential Houston starter is better than Estes. The number 5 starters are pick-'ems. Clement is a wild card, but his likely superiority to whichever Astro pitches third best certainly couldn't make up for the Astros superiority at every one of the other three obvious Astros edges. Last edited by Doc Pontoon : 02-01-2003 at 10:35 AM.

02-01-2003, 10:30 AM	#19
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Let's not lose sight that this thread is about the Pirates.........thanks. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

02-01-2003, 05:46 PM	#20
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Fogg I like Fogg better than Wells, so I'd compare him to Miller ... and there I see a tossup. Oswalt has been better, but I dont know how long he'll be able to stay healthy. The Astros have success getting the short guys up to he bigs, but havent been able to keep any of them healthy since Ruhle left. I'll stick with my Pirates as second best. The Astros just have too many unknowns, while the Buccos can cut guys like Jimmy Anderson. I actually like the Pirates as a surprise team. Anyone with a decent rotation and a guy like Brian Giles can contend, esp in a weak division. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

02-01-2003, 08:34 PM	#22
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Giles I'm of the opinion that if Giles wants CF, you give it to him - not because he's a star, but because there's a better chance to win. Giles immediately becomes the best CF in the league, offensively. Looking at his stats : http://www.baseballprospectus.com/cards/gilesbr02.shtml he does seem better in CF. A Stairs-Giles-Mackowiac/Wilson might be good, or there's still room for someone like Reggie Sanders at a desperation price or Rickey Henderson. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

01-30-2003, 09:58 PM	#16
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	You'd prefer Morris, Williams, and uh, uh, uh.............? The Astros could be better. Who else?

02-01-2003, 06:15 PM	#21
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Giles has publicly volunteered to go to center field, saying he feels more comfortable there than in left anyway. Given that, while he is stretched to cover CF, the Buccos should jump at the chance, since they have no one better to do the job. A defense-first guy on the order of a Shinjo to caddy for him in the late innings would be a good idea, and they can spread out their other guys. Giles in the middle of Stairs and Craig Wilson might be a defensive nightmare, but it would give the Pirates some pop in their OF.

02-02-2003, 12:10 PM	#24
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Fogg I like Fogg's upside and see Miller as about at the expected level. You do have great points as usual, Doc. Giles for Rincon = Hafner for Diaz __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

02-02-2003, 02:59 PM	#25
Dizzy Dean NetShrine Hot Prospect Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 22	Fogg vs Miller Will, I don't think you are giving enough credit to Miller. He is already one of the top pitchers in the NL. Fogg still has problems with the long ball and untill he gets his K/BB ratio up to 2.5, the dingers will kill him. Fogg in my mind will never be more than a back of the rotation pitcher. My humble predictions for 2003 30 starts each Miller (18W 2.97era 196k/76bb) Fogg (11W 4.87era 138k/71bb)/ The Pirates did pull off a nice trade in landing Fogg et al and I commend them for that. The Pirates look at lot like the Brewers.... at least the Bucs have a bonafide superstar in Giles.

02-02-2003, 08:31 PM	#26
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Strong You're right ... my initial impressions were strong on Fogg, weak on Miller. I dont think the difference is as significant as the past data is - I still see Fogg as an upside guy and Miller as "at his level" - but Miller is better ... for now. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

02-10-2003, 01:40 PM	#28
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	The Pirates have some reasons to be optimistic. Not of reaching the playoffs, but of reaching .500. Brian Giles was the sole offensive force last year, but should have help this year. Aramis Ramirez figures to be better coming off an injury-plagued year, and hope continues for a Kendall recovery. Adding Matt Stairs in the OF mix should help as well. On the mound, the Bucs are amassing some good arms. Kip Wells and Josh Fogg came in and pitched well last year, and Kris Benson is a year farther removed from his surgery. This should help, and give the Pirates a chance to win pretty much every day, based on their starting pitching. Another hitter is sorely needed. This team will show improvement. I predict the Pirates will win 75-80 games.

02-19-2003, 10:46 PM	#29
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	according to Stark, the Pirates are signing Reggie Sanders to a one yr, $1 mil deal to be their left fielder. Thus, Giles will shift to CF, and Stairs/Wilson will platoon rightfield.... ideally, though, I'd say they still need a true CF...then they can put Giles in LF, Sanders in RF, Wilson/Simon at 1B, Stairs on the bench, and release Young. __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

02-20-2003, 12:30 AM	#30
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	A true CF would be great, but there seem to be a shortage of them right now, and there just aren't any good ones available. Sanders boosts the Pirates lineup considerably (since he essentially takes Mackowiak's place, especially) and makes them a possibility for .500, IMO.

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