The Family Out Sheep

Max Power · 11-08-2002, 11:07 PM

Am I seeing this right?

Frank Taveras and Omar Moreno, combined, were responsible for roughly 26% of all the outs made for the ENTIRE PIRATES TEAM in 1979?

Is that bad, or just above what would be the normal share for two FT hitters?

moose · 11-08-2002, 11:55 PM

how do you come up with some of these observations!?

the early days of netshrine must have been REAL slow

seriously - say 11% of the outs per batting spot. bump the pitcher/pinch hitter to, say, 20%. that leaves 10% per spot. if two guys make a lot more outs that others and the other six average out, 26% isn't inconceivable.

VNV Nation · 11-08-2002, 11:59 PM

Taveras was traded to the Mets early in the season that year.

maybe you meant 78?

Alan Smithee · 11-09-2002, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Taveras was traded to the Mets early in the season that year.

maybe you meant 78?

has to be 1978. in 78 omar accounted for 416 outs and frankie 497. thats a lot of outs.

its a minor but interesting point : what happend to moreno?in 1978 he was 25 and despite only hitting .235 he had 81 walks and stole 71 bases in 93 attempts. his OBA was .342 and he played gold glove D. Its a good base to build on. in 79 his BA went up to .282 and he was still the fastest man in the NL with great D but his walks and OBA dropped. shortly after that he just fell off the table. whats the story? bad batting coach? Chuck tanner telling him to swing at more pitches? mostly I expect a player to add walks as he gets older . what happened?

VNV Nation · 11-09-2002, 02:38 AM

I don't know but I'm glad he stopped doing whatever. that guy annoyed the hell out of me. that whole team was scary.

mike easler was the 27th outfielder on the 79 team. that's some hitting.

hmrsf · 11-09-2002, 07:29 AM

The question is ..........did they get better? I know of another gentleman who was responsible for a lot of outs......... but turned magic in the outfield. He also did some timely sacrfice flies. A hitting coach came into his life and in the '80's became the one of the most dominate hitters of the 80's.

So did those Pirate hitters improve? Sorry my NL following is not so geat. Can a NL fan who saw and not read give input?

Max Power · 11-09-2002, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Taveras was traded to the Mets early in the season that year.

maybe you meant 78?

Major screw up on my part - nice catch.
I was looking at the Top/Worst Outs per Season Guys with 700+ PA since 1973 - - - and saw Frankie and Omar, 1979, and just blanked and said Pirates.

1978 works too - - but, it would have been cooler if the study was of two guys on a WS Champs.........

like 1979

Max Power · 11-09-2002, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by moose
how do you come up with some of these observations!?

This stuff is fun to me - - - I'm always looking to learn more baseball info...........always looking at stats and lists, etc.

moose · 11-09-2002, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
This stuff is fun to me - - - I'm always looking to learn more baseball info...........always looking at stats and lists, etc.

hey man - i'm not saying it's not fun, but you have a job, a long commute, a heavily used discussion board, and a baby - that doesn't leave much time

WiredTiger · 11-09-2002, 12:20 PM

1979 was probably Omar's best year. He had 757 plate appearances that year. That's a ton. For 1979 he slightly below average as a hitter with great speed. Not a bad leadoff hitter. In other years he was just really fast and nothing more.

Fuzzy Bear · 11-09-2002, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredTiger
1979 was probably Omar's best year. He had 757 plate appearances that year. That's a ton. For 1979 he slightly below average as a hitter with great speed. Not a bad leadoff hitter. In other years he was just really fast and nothing more.

I remember as a teenager getting copies of BASEBALL DIGEST (I think) and reading how Omar Moreno was a "young star" or a "star of the future" and they talked about how he was going to win a batting title, hit .300, etc. I would read these articles and think, "What are these guys smoking? This guy stinks out loud!"

Before I even knew about sabermetrics, I JUST KNEW that a player who was fast, but couldn't hit or walk, WOULD NEVER GET TO FIRST BASE, so his speed was only useful on defense. I knew this guy stunk. It seemed like he was the guy you batted leadoff to get him out of the way so you could get to the other guys.

After a while, people started calling Moreno "Omar, the Outmaker". A cruel, but accurate nickname. He was the first Tony Womack, except Womack can, at least, play the middle infield. Omar Moreno may have been a regular player for longer than he should have been longer than any other player that ever got a regular (502 plate appearances) job.

VNV Nation · 11-09-2002, 02:45 PM

Fuzzy -- Omar was a center fielder and a damned good one. And he wasn't stealing 40-50 bases a year, it was 70+. Granted he was awful after the WC year but a good center fielder who's an average hitter and a great basestealer is a decent player.

sweaver · 11-09-2002, 06:49 PM

The Pirates rolled to the World Championship in 1979 on the strength of two great in-season trades. The first was getting Foli for Tavarez, trading the superior range of Frankie for the stronger bat of Foli in the #2 hole. The second was getting Bill Madlock for Ed Whitson, giving them another right-handed bat to balance Stargell and Parker, and sending Phil Garner to second to replace the struggling Rennie Stennett. Moreno ate up lots of outs, but Tanner using both him and Taverez at the top of the order, because of their speed, was killing the offense before Parker could get up. The offense became much more balanced.

SmedIndy · 11-09-2002, 11:48 PM

Yes - but in 1978 he was awful - even with 70+ steals. You can argue the only good season he had was 1979. In fact his RCAA was even -1 in 1979.

pwdennis · 11-10-2002, 01:01 AM

Omar Moreno was Chuck Tanners kind of player, proof that Tanner had no business being a major league manager. Tanner allowed Moreno 359 AB in 1986 (BA .234 OBP .276 SLG .351 - ugh )

11-08-2002, 11:07 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	The Family Out Sheep Am I seeing this right? Frank Taveras and Omar Moreno, combined, were responsible for roughly 26% of all the outs made for the ENTIRE PIRATES TEAM in 1979? Is that bad, or just above what would be the normal share for two FT hitters? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

11-09-2002, 07:29 AM	#6
hmrsf forum mom Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: relocation Posts: 4,297	The question is ..........did they get better? I know of another gentleman who was responsible for a lot of outs......... but turned magic in the outfield. He also did some timely sacrfice flies. A hitting coach came into his life and in the '80's became the one of the most dominate hitters of the 80's. So did those Pirate hitters improve? Sorry my NL following is not so geat. Can a NL fan who saw and not read give input? __________________ NDF who shares good karma! Get a coaster! My cup is not only 1/2 full it is brimming! We don't need no stinking Arods!

11-10-2002, 01:01 AM	#15
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Omar Moreno was Chuck Tanners kind of player, proof that Tanner had no business being a major league manager. Tanner allowed Moreno 359 AB in 1986 (BA .234 OBP .276 SLG .351 - ugh ) __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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11-08-2002, 11:55 PM	#2
moose Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Socs Posts: 3,400	how do you come up with some of these observations!? the early days of netshrine must have been REAL slow seriously - say 11% of the outs per batting spot. bump the pitcher/pinch hitter to, say, 20%. that leaves 10% per spot. if two guys make a lot more outs that others and the other six average out, 26% isn't inconceivable.

11-08-2002, 11:59 PM	#3
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Taveras was traded to the Mets early in the season that year. maybe you meant 78?

11-09-2002, 02:38 AM	#5
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I don't know but I'm glad he stopped doing whatever. that guy annoyed the hell out of me. that whole team was scary. mike easler was the 27th outfielder on the 79 team. that's some hitting.

11-09-2002, 12:20 PM	#10
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	1979 was probably Omar's best year. He had 757 plate appearances that year. That's a ton. For 1979 he slightly below average as a hitter with great speed. Not a bad leadoff hitter. In other years he was just really fast and nothing more.

11-09-2002, 02:45 PM	#12
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Fuzzy -- Omar was a center fielder and a damned good one. And he wasn't stealing 40-50 bases a year, it was 70+. Granted he was awful after the WC year but a good center fielder who's an average hitter and a great basestealer is a decent player.

11-09-2002, 06:49 PM	#13
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	The Pirates rolled to the World Championship in 1979 on the strength of two great in-season trades. The first was getting Foli for Tavarez, trading the superior range of Frankie for the stronger bat of Foli in the #2 hole. The second was getting Bill Madlock for Ed Whitson, giving them another right-handed bat to balance Stargell and Parker, and sending Phil Garner to second to replace the struggling Rennie Stennett. Moreno ate up lots of outs, but Tanner using both him and Taverez at the top of the order, because of their speed, was killing the offense before Parker could get up. The offense became much more balanced.

11-09-2002, 11:48 PM	#14
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Yes - but in 1978 he was awful - even with 70+ steals. You can argue the only good season he had was 1979. In fact his RCAA was even -1 in 1979.

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