Sweet Lou Piniella For Cooperstown?

Max Power · 10-15-2002, 08:28 PM

He has a career record of 1,319-1,135.

He had wire-to-wire champs, the 1990 Reds.

He's had four 1st place teams and four 2nd place teams. He's had four 3rd place teams. In total, he's been win-place-or-show 12 times in 15 full seasons.

He had a team that won 116 games in a season.

Only four times in 15 full years has his team not had a winning record.

He's won 90+ seven times - - missing an 8th by 1 win.

If he retired today, should he be enshired in Cooperstown as a MGR?

pwdennis · 10-15-2002, 08:48 PM

As a player, Lou clearly was not Cooperstown material , although he was a good hitter. As a manager he's not there yet, but he could get there.

moose · 10-15-2002, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
He has a career record of 1,319-1,135.

He had wire-to-wire champs, the 1990 Reds.

He's had four 1st place teams and four 2nd place teams. He's had four 3rd place teams. In total, he's been win-place-or-show 12 times in 15 full seasons.

He had a team that won 116 games in a season.

Only four times in 15 full years has his team not had a winning record.

He's won 90+ seven times - - missing an 8th by 1 win.

If he retired today, should he be enshired in Cooperstown as a MGR?

dont forget the MLB records in bases thrown and bases thrown above average (both career and season records)

JamesI · 10-15-2002, 09:16 PM

He's close I think. If he can take over the Mets and guide them to some good years then retire on a high note, sure.

JamesI · 10-15-2002, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by moose
dont forget the MLB records in bases thrown and bases thrown above average (both career and season records)

LeGrandOrange · 10-15-2002, 09:35 PM

I hadn't thought about Sweet Lou being a Cooperstown manager, but you make valid points...

If he leads a third team to the playoffs...then I think his case is more serious. Might also help to have 1,500 wins or so.

sweaver · 10-15-2002, 10:29 PM

Thumbs up here. He's had consistent success.

SmedIndy · 10-15-2002, 10:43 PM

I can't say yes yet. He needs to bag a couple more WS titles.

Max Power · 10-15-2002, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
I can't say yes yet. He needs to bag a couple more WS titles.

He's already won as many as Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, and Leo Durocher, and Bobby Cox each have won.

SmedIndy · 10-15-2002, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
He's already won as many as Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, and Leo Durocher, and Bobby Cox each have won.

I can't put him in the Weaver class. Leo was a product of his own hype, and the fact he managed in the NY area for many years he was written about quite a bit. Charlie Grimm was a pretty good manager, too. Won four league titles with the Cubs. But he's not a HOF manager.

I really don't know what the HOF is going to do with managers with the new VC, but aside from a few I don't think many managers qualify in my eyes.

For now, Lou would have a corner booth in the coffee shop of the Hall of the Pretty Good, chatting with Dale Murphy and Dave Parker over coffee and a bacon/cheese omelet.

VNV Nation · 10-16-2002, 12:06 AM

Piniella is interesting in that he's been to the postseason with three distinctly different teams -- big bullpen Reds, humongous power Mariners, then the bingle-you-to-death Mariners.

My problem with Lou is that he had the nucleus to a potential powerhouse team in Seattle -- hard to find a team in history with five guys better than Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, A-Rod, Edgar, Buhner, not to mention some other good players like Fassero and Moyer -- and he hardly did anything with it.

JamesI · 10-16-2002, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
He's already won as many as Earl Weaver, Tony LaRussa, and Leo Durocher, and Bobby Cox each have won.

I don't think Pinella is in the same class as these others (other than LaRussa) Let me see Pinella raise a bad team to contention, or take a mediocre team to the series.

Ytown Tribe fan · 10-16-2002, 07:26 AM

Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Joe Torre, Billy Martin first, then Lou, IMO.

Jim Rice · 10-16-2002, 08:47 AM

I agree with those who have listed the LaRussa-Torre-Cox group as being more qualified contemporaries of Piniella's. On top of that, there are at least a half dozen retired guys whose cases are as strong (or stronger) than Lou's and still aren't in the Hall. What about Whitey Herzog? If you think Whitey belongs in the Hall, then so does Lou, otherwise he doesn't. A similar case can be made for Davey Johnson. Same for Billy Martin, as others have already said. What about Danny Murtaugh? Or Dick Williams? Heck, given the conditions he managed under, Tom Kelly has just as good a case as Lou right now.

I'm not saying Lou doesn't belong, but he would be in a long line. Personally, assuming all the active guys retired today, I'd rank them as follows:

LaRussa (did it in three cities)
Williams (Pennants in three cities; winning records in four)
Torre (Would be higher if his greatest success wasn't tied so closely to Steinbrenner's wallet)
Martin (post-season in four cities - loses ground because of his instability)
Cox (Really needs another WS title to move up)
Kelly (Two WS titles despite zero ownership support)
Herzog and Piniella (Too close to call)
Johnson
Murtaugh
Gene Mauch (Last because luck is an important thing for a manager to have and he had none.)

10-16-2002, 12:05 PM

To answer the question, if Pinella retired today, then no, he wouldn't get my vote.

Again, LaRussa, Cox and Torre are far ahead of him as active managers.

Davey Johnson accomplished more than Pinella did.

Whitey Herzog, Billy Martin and Dick Williams are better HoF candidates.

I'm inclined to wonder if Billy Southworth, Tom Kelly and Jim Leyland wouldn't be better candidates as well?

View Poll Results: Lou Piniella For Cooperstown?
Yes	4	17.39%
No	9	39.13%
Can't Make The Call Yet	10	43.48%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

10-15-2002, 08:28 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Sweet Lou Piniella For Cooperstown? He has a career record of 1,319-1,135. He had wire-to-wire champs, the 1990 Reds. He's had four 1st place teams and four 2nd place teams. He's had four 3rd place teams. In total, he's been win-place-or-show 12 times in 15 full seasons. He had a team that won 116 games in a season. Only four times in 15 full years has his team not had a winning record. He's won 90+ seven times - - missing an 8th by 1 win. If he retired today, should he be enshired in Cooperstown as a MGR? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

10-15-2002, 08:48 PM	#2
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	As a player, Lou clearly was not Cooperstown material , although he was a good hitter. As a manager he's not there yet, but he could get there. __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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10-15-2002, 09:16 PM	#4
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	He's close I think. If he can take over the Mets and guide them to some good years then retire on a high note, sure.

10-15-2002, 09:35 PM	#6
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	I hadn't thought about Sweet Lou being a Cooperstown manager, but you make valid points... If he leads a third team to the playoffs...then I think his case is more serious. Might also help to have 1,500 wins or so.

10-15-2002, 10:29 PM	#7
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Thumbs up here. He's had consistent success.

10-15-2002, 10:43 PM	#8
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	I can't say yes yet. He needs to bag a couple more WS titles.

10-16-2002, 12:06 AM	#11
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Piniella is interesting in that he's been to the postseason with three distinctly different teams -- big bullpen Reds, humongous power Mariners, then the bingle-you-to-death Mariners. My problem with Lou is that he had the nucleus to a potential powerhouse team in Seattle -- hard to find a team in history with five guys better than Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey, A-Rod, Edgar, Buhner, not to mention some other good players like Fassero and Moyer -- and he hardly did anything with it.

10-16-2002, 07:26 AM	#13
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Joe Torre, Billy Martin first, then Lou, IMO.

10-16-2002, 08:47 AM	#14
Jim Rice Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 783	I agree with those who have listed the LaRussa-Torre-Cox group as being more qualified contemporaries of Piniella's. On top of that, there are at least a half dozen retired guys whose cases are as strong (or stronger) than Lou's and still aren't in the Hall. What about Whitey Herzog? If you think Whitey belongs in the Hall, then so does Lou, otherwise he doesn't. A similar case can be made for Davey Johnson. Same for Billy Martin, as others have already said. What about Danny Murtaugh? Or Dick Williams? Heck, given the conditions he managed under, Tom Kelly has just as good a case as Lou right now. I'm not saying Lou doesn't belong, but he would be in a long line. Personally, assuming all the active guys retired today, I'd rank them as follows: LaRussa (did it in three cities) Williams (Pennants in three cities; winning records in four) Torre (Would be higher if his greatest success wasn't tied so closely to Steinbrenner's wallet) Martin (post-season in four cities - loses ground because of his instability) Cox (Really needs another WS title to move up) Kelly (Two WS titles despite zero ownership support) Herzog and Piniella (Too close to call) Johnson Murtaugh Gene Mauch (Last because luck is an important thing for a manager to have and he had none.)

10-16-2002, 12:05 PM	#15
BigKlu Posts: n/a	To answer the question, if Pinella retired today, then no, he wouldn't get my vote. Again, LaRussa, Cox and Torre are far ahead of him as active managers. Davey Johnson accomplished more than Pinella did. Whitey Herzog, Billy Martin and Dick Williams are better HoF candidates. I'm inclined to wonder if Billy Southworth, Tom Kelly and Jim Leyland wouldn't be better candidates as well?

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