Jim Rice and the Hall of Fame

Jim Rice · 10-07-2002, 06:21 PM

The primary reason I chose the user name I did is that I support Jim Rice's induction into the Hall of Fame. I believe this strongly enough to write a book on the subject (due to the publisher at tyhe end of this month). Given the consistently high level of discussion among the NetShrine crowd, I thought it would be a good idea to put the poll out there and open the subject up for commentary. I would like to hear all of the opinions, pro and con, and do NOT intend to inject my own thoughts into this. Please just fire away.

Max Power · 10-07-2002, 06:45 PM

Putting him in makes a case for Darrell Evans, Jose Cruz Sr. and Buddy Bell.

Code:

1975-1988 OWP Leaders 8000+ PA
    
1    George Brett               .712   
2    Mike Schmidt               .705   
3    Keith Hernandez            .661   
4    Dave Winfield              .652   
5    Dwight Evans               .637   
6    Jim Rice                   .603   
7    Darrell Evans              .598   
8    Robin Yount                .595   
9    Don Baylor                 .584   
10   Buddy Bell                 .545

Code:

1975-1988 RCAA Leaders 8000+ PA
    
1    Mike Schmidt                591   
2    George Brett                565   
3    Eddie Murray                438   
4    Rickey Henderson            411   
5    Wade Boggs                  390   
6    Dave Winfield               389   
7    Keith Hernandez             381   
8    Tim Raines                  354   
9    Dwight Evans                345   
10   Joe Morgan                  335   
11   Rod Carew                   333   
12   Fred Lynn                   309   
13   Jack Clark                  304   
14   Ken Singleton               299   
15   Pedro Guerrero              290   
16   Reggie Jackson              287   
17   Jose Cruz                   278   
18   Jim Rice                    276   
19   Greg Luzinski               260   
20   Don Mattingly               250   
T21  George Foster               243   
T21  Dale Murphy                 243   
23   Dave Parker                 239   
24   Robin Yount                 235   
25   Darryl Strawberry           225

Code:

1975-1988 Leaders OUTS made, min 8000+ PA
    
1    Robin Yount                6030   
2    Jim Rice                   5998   
3    Dave Winfield              5919   
4    Buddy Bell                 5691   
5    Mike Schmidt               5593   
6    Don Baylor                 5538   
7    Dave Parker                5482   
8    Bill Buckner               5477   
9    Steve Garvey               5465   
10   Gary Carter                5459   
11   Frank White                5445   
12   Dave Concepcion            5397   
13   Dwight Evans               5361   
14   Darrell Evans              5352   
15   Larry Parrish              5255   
16   George Brett               5237   
17   Andre Dawson               5229   
18   Keith Hernandez            5190   
19   Eddie Murray               5101   
20   Jose Cruz                  5063

Fuzzy Bear · 10-07-2002, 06:48 PM

My position on Jim Rice is simple. There are a LOT of players ahead of him that are eligible for the HOF that are not in.

Ted Simmons, Tony Oliva, Gary Carter, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, to name a few, are clearly more deserving than Rice. I say this because most players who have done what these guys have done in their careers are IN the HOF while most guys who have done what Rice has done are not in.

I would argue that Frank Howard and Rocky Colavito are better candidates. They produced similar stats in a worse era for hitters.

I would also be hard pressed to say that Rice had a better career than Fred Lynn. Lynn had a higher OPB and was more valuble defensively, plus he didn't play in hitter-friendly Fenway his entire career.

He wouldn't damage the HOF if elected; he's like Tony Perez, in my book. If he were a broad-based skills player with more defensive value, that would be one thing. He was a slugger who grounded into a lot of double plays. Most guys with similar careers are NOT in the HOF.

Ytown Tribe fan · 10-07-2002, 07:09 PM

Boy, that RCAA list sure makes Jose Cruz look even better. Rice is as OVER-rated as Cruz is UNDER-rated, for one obvious reason.

Rice for the Hall? Maybe, but it's a matter of priority. First put in the players who were genuinely better, like Blyleven, Cruz, Santo, Dewey Evans, Sal Bando, Amos Otis, Al Oliver, Bobby Bonds, Don Baylor, Rusty Staub...guys who played some defense or hit in lesser parks than Fenway. or were more productive using way fewer outs.

For me, Rice's defining year should have been 1986 when, at the age of 33, he put together a wonderful season overshadowed only by Boggs and Clemens: 200 hits, only 19 GIDP (lowest total in years) -- just a fine year. That was the turning point ... the last fine year for Jim.

In 1986, Rice was at the point where if he could stay healthy for 5 or 6 more years, he'd be a no-doubter. But he didn't. He faded too soon afterward. Also, look at the number of players who have recently made Rice's home run totals look weak ... and home runs, RBI, extra-base hits and TB are his only claims to Fame, all helped enormously by Fenway and hurt by the sheer number of outs he made to achieve them.

sweaver · 10-07-2002, 07:54 PM

The Rice arguments are pretty much the same as the Juan Gonzalez arguments. I don't support him for the Hall either.

soxfan121 · 10-07-2002, 08:03 PM

I saw an awful lot of Jim Ed growing up a Red Sox fan. I can honestly say that I think Dwight Evans deserves more consideration than Jim Ed.

Rice is negatively affected by the park he played in (although his career can be bisected in pre- and post- 406 Club addition, when Fenway became less of a hitter's heaven), by his lack of defensive prowess (average, at best, in the easiest LF in the AL), and by his lack of a defining moment. Sure, Rice had great seasons, but in `86 he was overshadowed by Boggs and Clemens, in `75 by Lynn, in `78 by circumstance. Rice was a fine player, even a great player for a few years - but those years were too few and too ordinary (in context) to be granted entrance into the HOF.

JamesI · 10-07-2002, 09:30 PM

I have to say no to Rice. Too many others who are more deserving.

Jim Rice · 10-07-2002, 10:04 PM

I want to make one clarifying comment and then I'll shut up again. Please limit your comments to Rice's qualifications for the Hall or lack thereof, rather than bringing up others who are more worthy. I'll concede right now that there are several players more worthy of induction who have been excluded to date. Please forget them for the purposes of this discussion and focus just on Rice UNLESS they are direct comps. The Frank Howard comparison is fair game, the Gary Carter one isn't. Jose Cruz, fair. Buddy Bell, not. In general, if they're not a corner outfielder, preferably a left fielder, please leave them out of the discussion.

Muchos Gracias.

Max Power · 10-07-2002, 10:16 PM

Rice played the OF in 74% of his games.

Should he not then only be compared to players who were LFers and DHed 26% of the time?

Max Power · 10-07-2002, 10:25 PM

The more I think about it, the best player to compare Rice to is Dewey.

Code:

1975-1988

GAMES                            G     
1    Jim Rice                   2009   
2    Dwight Evans               1966

Both played for the same team, in the same time, facing the same pitchers. Both were RH batters. Both were corner OFers.

Evans was the better hitter:

Code:

BOSTON REDSOX
CAREER
1975-1988
OF
PLATE APPEARANCES > 5000

EXTRA BASE HITS                 EBH      PA     
1    Dwight Evans                702     7525   
2    Jim Rice                    696     7503   

OPS                             OPS      PA     
1    Jim Rice                   .860     7503   
2    Dwight Evans               .848     7525   

OWP                             OWP      PA     
1    Dwight Evans               .625     7525   
2    Jim Rice                   .606     7503   

RCAA                           RCAA      PA     
1    Dwight Evans                285     7525   
2    Jim Rice                    242     7503   

RUNS CREATED/GAME              RC/G      PA     
1    Dwight Evans               6.35     7525   
2    Jim Rice                   6.04     7503

And, we all know the Evans was by far the better defender.

If Rice goes in, it can only be after Evans.

JamesI · 10-07-2002, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Rice
I want to make one clarifying comment and then I'll shut up again. Please limit your comments to Rice's qualifications for the Hall or lack thereof, rather than bringing up others who are more worthy. I'll concede right now that there are several players more worthy of induction who have been excluded to date. Please forget them for the purposes of this discussion and focus just on Rice UNLESS they are direct comps. The Frank Howard comparison is fair game, the Gary Carter one isn't. Jose Cruz, fair. Buddy Bell, not. In general, if they're not a corner outfielder, preferably a left fielder, please leave them out of the discussion.

Muchos Gracias.

Ok, ignoring the comps.

If I had a vote, he's close, but falls short.

Alan Smithee · 10-07-2002, 11:19 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Jim Rice
[b]I want to make one clarifying comment and then I'll shut up again. Please limit your comments to Rice's qualifications for the Hall or lack thereof, rather than bringing up others who are more worthy. >>

Ok rice on his own merits and in my eyes.

wht I see is a LF who was just ok with the glove. better than most people give hm credit for but not great . Not a really good baseunner despite having a little speed when young. His counting totals are not all that impressive. good but not that great. His peak was good but it's not any more impressive than frank howard was at his peak and nobody is making the frank howard argument. I dont see any intangables like being a clubhoue leader or playing on a lot of winners. in fact he was mostly thought of as kind of a pain in the butt. He did not age well. His teammate lynn is the poster boy for wasted promise but actually lynn last longer and had more value as an older player than Rice did. Rice was helped quite a bit by park and era.

So hes a very good player, and not a disgrace to the hall but not a better case than frank howard or any number of other guys. Dawson is a better case than either but people hate him because he didn't walk so ill leave that alone.

VNV Nation · 10-07-2002, 11:40 PM

I am sorta wishy-washy on Evans. One day I want him in and the next day I don't.

Same with Rice.

On one hand, Rice is more like a Hall of Famer than Evans is, because he was an MVP, led the league in homers and RBIs and things like that. Over a five-year period he was probably the best hitter in the major leagues. Evans was never the best hitter in the majors. There's no question that Rice, circa 1977-79, was a HOF-caliber hitter.

On the other hand, over the course of their careers, Evans was a slightly better player, mostly because he was a much better defensive player.

If you take Rice's big years and meld them with Evans' longevity, then you have a clear-cut Hall of Famer. Alone, both are borderline.

pwdennis · 10-08-2002, 12:49 AM

I would support Jim Rice for the HOF - I also would support Dewey Evans - they were, for their careers fairly equivalent players. The argument for Rice is the same argument that puts Don Drysdale in the HOF while leaving out Milt Pappas - big seasons

Rice had several really big offensive seasons. He was a better all around hitter than Frank Howard or Rocky Colavito and the comparison to Tony Perez is silly. Rice was a far more productive hitter than Perez and played a more important defensive position. Per 162 games Rice averaged 30 hrs 113 rbi & 97 runs compared to Perez at 22-96-74. Rice also shredded Perez in BA, OBP & SLG. Rice's per 162 numbers would stand up well measured against today's high octane offensive era

The various measures suggest strongly that Rice is an above average HOF candidate.

Black Ink: Batting - 33 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 176 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 42.9 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 147.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

There doesn't seem to be a lot of dissent about the 2002 inductee...

Black Ink: Batting - 2 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 51 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 35.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 142.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

... who definitely lowered HOF standards with his induction, even allowing for position played

Is Rice the best qualified candidate currently standing outside of the Hall ? Of course not. Does he merit induction ? Absolutely

VNV Nation · 10-08-2002, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwdennis

There doesn't seem to be a lot of dissent about the 2002 inductee...

Black Ink: Batting - 2 (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 51 (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 35.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 142.0 (Likely HOFer > 100)

... who definitely lowered HOF standards with his induction, even allowing for position played

Sorry to go off-topic for a moment but this comparison is silly. Of these measures, only one, HOF Monitor, takes into consideration defensive contribution, and Ozzie is well above the line in that category. The others are almost entirely based on offensive stats.

If you counted defensive stats, Ozzie's black ink would be off the charts.

View Poll Results: Should Jime Rice be in the Hall of Fame
Yes	5	22.73%
No	17	77.27%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

10-07-2002, 06:21 PM	#1
Jim Rice Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 783	Jim Rice and the Hall of Fame The primary reason I chose the user name I did is that I support Jim Rice's induction into the Hall of Fame. I believe this strongly enough to write a book on the subject (due to the publisher at tyhe end of this month). Given the consistently high level of discussion among the NetShrine crowd, I thought it would be a good idea to put the poll out there and open the subject up for commentary. I would like to hear all of the opinions, pro and con, and do NOT intend to inject my own thoughts into this. Please just fire away.

10-07-2002, 10:16 PM	#9
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Rice played the OF in 74% of his games. Should he not then only be compared to players who were LFers and DHed 26% of the time? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

10-07-2002, 10:25 PM	#10
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	The more I think about it, the best player to compare Rice to is Dewey. Code: 1975-1988 GAMES G 1 Jim Rice 2009 2 Dwight Evans 1966 Both played for the same team, in the same time, facing the same pitchers. Both were RH batters. Both were corner OFers. Evans was the better hitter: Code: BOSTON REDSOX CAREER 1975-1988 OF PLATE APPEARANCES > 5000 EXTRA BASE HITS EBH PA 1 Dwight Evans 702 7525 2 Jim Rice 696 7503 OPS OPS PA 1 Jim Rice .860 7503 2 Dwight Evans .848 7525 OWP OWP PA 1 Dwight Evans .625 7525 2 Jim Rice .606 7503 RCAA RCAA PA 1 Dwight Evans 285 7525 2 Jim Rice 242 7503 RUNS CREATED/GAME RC/G PA 1 Dwight Evans 6.35 7525 2 Jim Rice 6.04 7503 And, we all know the Evans was by far the better defender. If Rice goes in, it can only be after Evans. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

10-08-2002, 12:49 AM	#14
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I would support Jim Rice for the HOF - I also would support Dewey Evans - they were, for their careers fairly equivalent players. The argument for Rice is the same argument that puts Don Drysdale in the HOF while leaving out Milt Pappas - big seasons Rice had several really big offensive seasons. He was a better all around hitter than Frank Howard or Rocky Colavito and the comparison to Tony Perez is silly. Rice was a far more productive hitter than Perez and played a more important defensive position. Per 162 games Rice averaged 30 hrs 113 rbi & 97 runs compared to Perez at 22-96-74. Rice also shredded Perez in BA, OBP & SLG. Rice's per 162 numbers would stand up well measured against today's high octane offensive era The various measures suggest strongly that Rice is an above average HOF candidate. Black Ink: Batting - 33 (Average HOFer ~ 27) Gray Ink: Batting - 176 (Average HOFer ~ 144) HOF Standards: Batting - 42.9 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 147.0 (Likely HOFer > 100) There doesn't seem to be a lot of dissent about the 2002 inductee... Black Ink: Batting - 2 (Average HOFer ~ 27) Gray Ink: Batting - 51 (Average HOFer ~ 144) HOF Standards: Batting - 35.0 (Average HOFer ~ 50) HOF Monitor: Batting - 142.0 (Likely HOFer > 100) ... who definitely lowered HOF standards with his induction, even allowing for position played Is Rice the best qualified candidate currently standing outside of the Hall ? Of course not. Does he merit induction ? Absolutely __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

10-07-2002, 06:48 PM	#3
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	My position on Jim Rice is simple. There are a LOT of players ahead of him that are eligible for the HOF that are not in. Ted Simmons, Tony Oliva, Gary Carter, Ron Santo, Joe Torre, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, to name a few, are clearly more deserving than Rice. I say this because most players who have done what these guys have done in their careers are IN the HOF while most guys who have done what Rice has done are not in. I would argue that Frank Howard and Rocky Colavito are better candidates. They produced similar stats in a worse era for hitters. I would also be hard pressed to say that Rice had a better career than Fred Lynn. Lynn had a higher OPB and was more valuble defensively, plus he didn't play in hitter-friendly Fenway his entire career. He wouldn't damage the HOF if elected; he's like Tony Perez, in my book. If he were a broad-based skills player with more defensive value, that would be one thing. He was a slugger who grounded into a lot of double plays. Most guys with similar careers are NOT in the HOF.

10-07-2002, 07:09 PM	#4
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Boy, that RCAA list sure makes Jose Cruz look even better. Rice is as OVER-rated as Cruz is UNDER-rated, for one obvious reason. Rice for the Hall? Maybe, but it's a matter of priority. First put in the players who were genuinely better, like Blyleven, Cruz, Santo, Dewey Evans, Sal Bando, Amos Otis, Al Oliver, Bobby Bonds, Don Baylor, Rusty Staub...guys who played some defense or hit in lesser parks than Fenway. or were more productive using way fewer outs. For me, Rice's defining year should have been 1986 when, at the age of 33, he put together a wonderful season overshadowed only by Boggs and Clemens: 200 hits, only 19 GIDP (lowest total in years) -- just a fine year. That was the turning point ... the last fine year for Jim. In 1986, Rice was at the point where if he could stay healthy for 5 or 6 more years, he'd be a no-doubter. But he didn't. He faded too soon afterward. Also, look at the number of players who have recently made Rice's home run totals look weak ... and home runs, RBI, extra-base hits and TB are his only claims to Fame, all helped enormously by Fenway and hurt by the sheer number of outs he made to achieve them.

10-07-2002, 07:54 PM	#5
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	The Rice arguments are pretty much the same as the Juan Gonzalez arguments. I don't support him for the Hall either.

10-07-2002, 08:03 PM	#6
soxfan121 Renounced Membership 7/9/03 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Live Free Or Die, USA Posts: 1,335	I saw an awful lot of Jim Ed growing up a Red Sox fan. I can honestly say that I think Dwight Evans deserves more consideration than Jim Ed. Rice is negatively affected by the park he played in (although his career can be bisected in pre- and post- 406 Club addition, when Fenway became less of a hitter's heaven), by his lack of defensive prowess (average, at best, in the easiest LF in the AL), and by his lack of a defining moment. Sure, Rice had great seasons, but in `86 he was overshadowed by Boggs and Clemens, in `75 by Lynn, in `78 by circumstance. Rice was a fine player, even a great player for a few years - but those years were too few and too ordinary (in context) to be granted entrance into the HOF.

10-07-2002, 09:30 PM	#7
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I have to say no to Rice. Too many others who are more deserving.

10-07-2002, 10:04 PM	#8
Jim Rice Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Shawnee, KS Posts: 783	I want to make one clarifying comment and then I'll shut up again. Please limit your comments to Rice's qualifications for the Hall or lack thereof, rather than bringing up others who are more worthy. I'll concede right now that there are several players more worthy of induction who have been excluded to date. Please forget them for the purposes of this discussion and focus just on Rice UNLESS they are direct comps. The Frank Howard comparison is fair game, the Gary Carter one isn't. Jose Cruz, fair. Buddy Bell, not. In general, if they're not a corner outfielder, preferably a left fielder, please leave them out of the discussion. Muchos Gracias.

10-07-2002, 11:19 PM	#12
Alan Smithee Guest Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 152	[quote]Originally posted by Jim Rice [b]I want to make one clarifying comment and then I'll shut up again. Please limit your comments to Rice's qualifications for the Hall or lack thereof, rather than bringing up others who are more worthy. >> Ok rice on his own merits and in my eyes. wht I see is a LF who was just ok with the glove. better than most people give hm credit for but not great . Not a really good baseunner despite having a little speed when young. His counting totals are not all that impressive. good but not that great. His peak was good but it's not any more impressive than frank howard was at his peak and nobody is making the frank howard argument. I dont see any intangables like being a clubhoue leader or playing on a lot of winners. in fact he was mostly thought of as kind of a pain in the butt. He did not age well. His teammate lynn is the poster boy for wasted promise but actually lynn last longer and had more value as an older player than Rice did. Rice was helped quite a bit by park and era. So hes a very good player, and not a disgrace to the hall but not a better case than frank howard or any number of other guys. Dawson is a better case than either but people hate him because he didn't walk so ill leave that alone.

10-07-2002, 11:40 PM	#13
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I am sorta wishy-washy on Evans. One day I want him in and the next day I don't. Same with Rice. On one hand, Rice is more like a Hall of Famer than Evans is, because he was an MVP, led the league in homers and RBIs and things like that. Over a five-year period he was probably the best hitter in the major leagues. Evans was never the best hitter in the majors. There's no question that Rice, circa 1977-79, was a HOF-caliber hitter. On the other hand, over the course of their careers, Evans was a slightly better player, mostly because he was a much better defensive player. If you take Rice's big years and meld them with Evans' longevity, then you have a clear-cut Hall of Famer. Alone, both are borderline.

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