C-Dog v. Grace, 1996-2002.

Max Power · 09-29-2002, 11:41 PM

For the period 1996-2002, which 1B has been the better player: Mark Grace or Fred McGriff?

Games played and RCAA for that period are close.

Who would you pick and why?

SmedIndy · 09-29-2002, 11:48 PM

Someone else??

Actually, it would depend if I had a team that was power deficient or OBP deficient. Then I'd choose the one to fill that need.

VNV Nation · 09-30-2002, 12:02 AM

If their offense is close I would pick Grace. He's a very good fielder.For some reason McGriff has never gotten a reputation for being butcher but he's terrible. He's the last guy I'd ever want holding the ball while guys are running around the bases.

JamesI · 09-30-2002, 12:47 AM

I have to agree. If the offense is close, Grace wins based on defense

pathogan · 09-30-2002, 07:45 AM

...better,much much better defense then McGriff[despite the defensive drills video}

gyb13 · 09-30-2002, 01:33 PM

also, Grace has been more consistent with the bat, whereas McGriff had a pair of big seasons (99/01) and other average ones...I'd also take Gracie (better glove....and he can pitch too

)

poorme · 09-30-2002, 01:45 PM

i'm too busy to look up the numbers, but do those years favor grace disproportionately to their entire careers? lots of people are picking grace, but no way he makes HOF while MCGriff probably does. what's up with THAT?

grace looks cooked now. or maybe smoked.

VNV Nation · 09-30-2002, 04:45 PM

you could always go with the "Spiezio sucks" logic and take McGriff because he doesn't hit like a wuss.

Fuzzy Bear · 09-30-2002, 05:43 PM

McGriff's OBP is .381. Grace's is .386. McGriff has 478 HRs lifetime.
Grace has 170. McGriff slugged .514 prior to this season. Grace slugged .447. Neither is swift on the bases; Grace has the reputation of being slower.

It seems to me that if one were to rate Grace ahead of McGriff, his defense would have to be more valuble than McGriff's to the point where either McGriff was Dick Stuart, or Grace was actually a 3B. I cannot believe that Grace's defense at 1B was so much better as to make up for what I consider to be significantly inferior offense vis a vis McGriff. McGriff's secondary offensive skills were outstanding; Grace had no power, and please don't try to sell me the hooey that Wrigley Field is really a pitcher's park; Grace has NEVER EVEN HIT 20 JACKS IN A SEASON!!!!! (Even Wade Boggs his 24 jacks in 1987. Even Bert Campeneris hit 22 jacks in 1971.)

gyb13 · 09-30-2002, 06:03 PM

remember, this is 1996-2002 only, not their entire careers

Fuzzy Bear · 09-30-2002, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gyb13
remember, this is 1996-2002 only, not their entire careers

I'd still take McGriff, for the same reason. McGriff ain't done. Grace is toast!

Max Power · 09-30-2002, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gyb13
remember, this is 1996-2002 only, not their entire careers

Bingo - the catch is, from 1988 to 1995, they also played about the same amount of games - - but, in that period, McGriff was twice the hitter that Grace was...............

First 8 years, advantage Fred.
Last 8 years, about even.

pwdennis · 10-01-2002, 01:07 AM

I would pick Crime Dog except in an extreme pitcher's park like the Astrodome. Whatever defensive advantage Grace had wouldn't offset the Dog's power advantage

KCBOOMER · 10-01-2002, 09:24 AM

Sure looks like it comes down to OBA vs Slugging. Pick'em.

moose · 10-01-2002, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Sure looks like it comes down to OBA vs Slugging. Pick'em.

can i just take giambi?

i'd go with grace by a hair (or a cigarette butt)

09-29-2002, 11:41 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	C-Dog v. Grace, 1996-2002. For the period 1996-2002, which 1B has been the better player: Mark Grace or Fred McGriff? Games played and RCAA for that period are close. Who would you pick and why? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

09-30-2002, 07:45 AM	#5
pathogan william Blake's Innkeeper Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 2,828	Grace,in a push ...better,much much better defense then McGriff[despite the defensive drills video}

09-30-2002, 01:33 PM	#6
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	also, Grace has been more consistent with the bat, whereas McGriff had a pair of big seasons (99/01) and other average ones...I'd also take Gracie (better glove....and he can pitch too ) __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

09-30-2002, 06:03 PM	#10
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	remember, this is 1996-2002 only, not their entire careers __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

10-01-2002, 01:07 AM	#13
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I would pick Crime Dog except in an extreme pitcher's park like the Astrodome. Whatever defensive advantage Grace had wouldn't offset the Dog's power advantage __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

09-29-2002, 11:48 PM	#2
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Someone else?? Actually, it would depend if I had a team that was power deficient or OBP deficient. Then I'd choose the one to fill that need.

09-30-2002, 12:02 AM	#3
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	If their offense is close I would pick Grace. He's a very good fielder.For some reason McGriff has never gotten a reputation for being butcher but he's terrible. He's the last guy I'd ever want holding the ball while guys are running around the bases.

09-30-2002, 12:47 AM	#4
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I have to agree. If the offense is close, Grace wins based on defense

09-30-2002, 01:45 PM	#7
poorme Guest Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: washington dc Posts: 2,625	i'm too busy to look up the numbers, but do those years favor grace disproportionately to their entire careers? lots of people are picking grace, but no way he makes HOF while MCGriff probably does. what's up with THAT? grace looks cooked now. or maybe smoked.

09-30-2002, 04:45 PM	#8
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	you could always go with the "Spiezio sucks" logic and take McGriff because he doesn't hit like a wuss.

09-30-2002, 05:43 PM	#9
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	McGriff's OBP is .381. Grace's is .386. McGriff has 478 HRs lifetime. Grace has 170. McGriff slugged .514 prior to this season. Grace slugged .447. Neither is swift on the bases; Grace has the reputation of being slower. It seems to me that if one were to rate Grace ahead of McGriff, his defense would have to be more valuble than McGriff's to the point where either McGriff was Dick Stuart, or Grace was actually a 3B. I cannot believe that Grace's defense at 1B was so much better as to make up for what I consider to be significantly inferior offense vis a vis McGriff. McGriff's secondary offensive skills were outstanding; Grace had no power, and please don't try to sell me the hooey that Wrigley Field is really a pitcher's park; Grace has NEVER EVEN HIT 20 JACKS IN A SEASON!!!!! (Even Wade Boggs his 24 jacks in 1987. Even Bert Campeneris hit 22 jacks in 1971.)

10-01-2002, 09:24 AM	#14
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Sure looks like it comes down to OBA vs Slugging. Pick'em. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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