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09-25-2002, 10:10 PM
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#16 |
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NS Omnipresent Brasilian
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Crazy George's playground
Posts: 10,903
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interesting, qt, the same thought came to my mind this morning...
but still have to say no.
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Gustavo  NDF ModeratorThose who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin |
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09-25-2002, 10:31 PM
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#17 |
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NetShrine's Historian
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Zionsville, IN
Posts: 10,569
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If Orel gets in, then you may as well let guys like Duane Kuiper and Mike Krukow in.
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09-25-2002, 10:35 PM
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#18 |
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Membership Suspended 11/19/02
Join Date: May 2002
Location: VNV Nation
Posts: 2,952
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In a word: no.
There's about oh 20-100 guys with credentials as good as Orel. |
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09-26-2002, 01:34 AM
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#19 |
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Guest
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 152
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no. hes in the freddie fitzsimmons/mel harder class.
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09-26-2002, 01:35 AM
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#20 | |
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NetShrine All-Century Team
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Winter Springs, FL
Posts: 2,503
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Quote:
Smed - thay's a gross exageration. Orel was a very good to excellent pitcher for a decade, far far closer to a Bob Gibson than Krukow is to being an Orel Hershiser Krukow and Kuiper were marginal major leaguers That said, Hershiser is not HOF material
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"I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears Last edited by pwdennis : 09-26-2002 at 01:38 AM. |
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09-26-2002, 01:36 AM
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#21 | |
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NetShrine All-Century Team
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Winter Springs, FL
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Quote:
I quite agree but both of them are better than many HOF selectees
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"I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears |
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09-26-2002, 02:11 AM
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#22 | |
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Guest
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 152
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Quote:
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09-26-2002, 08:17 AM
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#23 | |
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NS Omnipresent Brasilian
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Crazy George's playground
Posts: 10,903
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Quote:
nope, it's just another argument in favor of crowbars!
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Gustavo NDF ModeratorThose who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin |
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09-26-2002, 09:16 AM
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#24 | |
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NetShrine's Historian
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Zionsville, IN
Posts: 10,569
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Quote:
That's what I was trying for PW....  |
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09-26-2002, 09:52 AM
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#25 | |
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william Blake's Innkeeper
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,828
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Funny
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  very funny,Boom I agree |
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09-26-2002, 10:34 PM
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#26 |
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All-NetShrine Team Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 417
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"No" to the Hall of Fame.
"Yes" to the Hall of Really Pretty Swell.
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"It's not the high price of stardom that bothers me, it's the high price of mediocrity." -- Bill Veeck |
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09-30-2002, 06:25 PM
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#27 | |
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NetShrine's Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Living by faith, and not by sight!
Posts: 2,194
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Quote:
Smed, please! Orel ain't THAT bad!  Those seats next to Pop Haines need to be reserved for Rube Marquard, Waite Hoyt, Herb Pennock, and Jack Chesbro. Orel was a truly dominant and great pitcher, if only for a short time. He isn't a HOFer for induction purposes, but he was a dominant player in his best years. While I don't advocate his selection, and can't make myself doing it, he wouldn't deserve THE CROWBAR OF SMED if, by some fluke, he got in. After all, Frankie Frisch was dead before his career started! |
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10-01-2002, 01:03 AM
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#28 |
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Membership Suspended 11/19/02
Join Date: May 2002
Location: VNV Nation
Posts: 2,952
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Orel looks like a dead-ringer to Jesse Haines to me:
210-158 ERA+ 108 210-150 ERA+ 112 I would also suggest that your definition of "dominant" is somewhat questionable. Orel was certainly a very good pitcher at his best, and he was the best pitcher in the league in 1988 and probably over 1988-89...a two-year period, which is not much...He also had a nice year in 1985, but he was the third-best pitcher in the league, and frankly nowhere near the top two. He never led the league in ERA. His black ink is pretty abysmal...he led the league (tied) in wins once, and once in winning percentage, but he also led the league in losses twice. For guys with similar (but better) career numbers and similar (but better) peak, check out Luis Tiant, Babe Adams and Billy Pierce, all of whom also pitched excellently in the postseason. |
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10-01-2002, 08:43 PM
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#29 | |
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NetShrine All-Century Team
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Winter Springs, FL
Posts: 2,503
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Quote:
I am not sure that Black Ink means the same thing that it did before expansion. To lead an 8 team league is easier than leading a 15 or 16 team league. Also if Gray Ink was a top ten finish before 1961 shouldn't it be expanded to 15 or 20 places for subsequent years. If you combined the pre-expansion leagues and rated the Black and Gray Ink for the combined leagues, you would have approximately the same situation that exists within one league today This is not to say that I think that Orel is of HOF caliber, but it is not fair to compare Orel's Black Ink stats to Babe Adams or Billy Pierce - he was competing against significantly more players
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"I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears |
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10-02-2002, 04:39 PM
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#30 | |
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NetShrine's Evangelist
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Living by faith, and not by sight!
Posts: 2,194
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Quote:
This is my view on Orel as well. Incidentally, I think Tiant is a HOFer under Bill James' Definition C (and arguably under Definition B). I mention this only because he was mentioned in VNV Nation's post. I also believe that Orel was significantly above Billy Pierce in peak value, for what it's worth. It's kind of odd that I'm sticking up for Orel Hershiser, a player who I hated when he was active with the Dodgers in his best years. I thought he robbed David Cone of the 1988 Cy Young Award due to his catchy name and hype (remember "Orel surgery" whenever Hershiser got a big strikeout?). His comeback from surgery was gutsy, and although he wasn't the pitcher he had been prior to the operation, he was a very useful rotation starter for a period of years after the operation. A lot of guys don't make it back as far as Orel did, which is an indication of his ability to think and to pitch. I miss him a lot more than Nolan, the Overrated! |
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