Best Combo - Player/MGR

Max Power · 09-06-2002, 11:51 PM

The HOF Hopes thread gave me this idea...............

Which man has the best combination of playing and managing career?

Some bad players were great managers.
Some great players were bad managers.

Who was both a very-good to great player and a very-good to great manager?

John McGraw? Joe Torre? Gil Hodges? Someone else?

VNV Nation · 09-07-2002, 12:15 AM

That's a good question. I take it you mean, something like the Bill James power-speed number...

I would rank them like this:

1. McGraw
2. Torre
3. Hodges
4. Tris Speaker
5. Frank Robinson

probably forgetting someone important. john montgomery ward would make it if you count player/manager/executive

pwdennis · 09-07-2002, 12:21 AM

Lou Boudreau, player-manager-MVP of the 1948 Indians belongs on the list somewhere as does Frank Chance.

Curiously, Chance had pretty good stats up to the time he became a player-manager in 1905 but his numbers started to slip after the 06 season. Chance himself said the pressure of doing both jobs caused his decline as a player

VNV Nation · 09-07-2002, 12:28 AM

Thanks. Chance was a stupid omission, should be top 5.

Frankly I'm shocked any Red Sox fan would pick Boudreau as a great manager.

pwdennis · 09-07-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Thanks. Chance was a stupid omission, should be top 5.

Frankly I'm shocked any Red Sox fan would pick Boudreau as a great manager.

I try to be objective - Boudreau's record as manager of the Indians was good. After he left Cleveland he took over a Red Sox team that was essentially without Ted Williams for the 52 & 53 seasons and that then got old. In Kansas City he was managing a team largely devoid of talent that served mostly as a Yankee farm team

Alan Smithee · 09-07-2002, 12:52 AM

Fred Clarke comes to mind right away. A really good manager and a very fine player. He got annoying after he got rich but that came after he stopped managing.

-Im never sure what to make of cap anson as manager. I suspect he was pretty good for the first 7 or 8 years but his ego just took over everything and eventually destroyed the team. still a really great player and a good manager for about a decade. its an impressive record.

-- Joe cronin ws a better manager than boudreau and maybe a beter player.

-miller huggins was a terrific leadoff man and a ok second baseman. did not play for a long time but he was good.people tend to forget that.

- Hugie jennings was a very good player for a short time and a very good manager for a short time. as manager I think he hung around for far too long but he did win three straight pennants.

I think Schondeisnt was overated as a manager but he was not what id call bad . and of course he was a first rate player.

VNV Nation · 09-07-2002, 01:04 AM

Other than Ward, Selee, Hanlon, I think almost all managers pre-1900 should get an asterisk. It wasn't really the profession that we know today. As for Anson I suspect that most of his success was derived from having King Kelly around both for his on-field talents and smarts.

LeGrandOrange · 09-07-2002, 01:06 AM

What, no mention of Clark Griffith?

Skip · 09-07-2002, 01:09 AM

My immediate first thoughts were Torre, Chance, and McGraw. Not sure about others, but a very good question.

Actually, it depends a lot on how you weight the player v. manager sides. If it's total value between the two, then guys like Rose could be considered, just from his greatness as a player, but doesnt make much sense in the context of the thread. F. Robby qualifies that way to a lesser extent though he has legit managerial credentials.

VNV Nation · 09-07-2002, 01:36 AM

Ack...Mickey Cochrane deserves a mention.

By the Lou Boudreau standard we could add Frankie Frisch, although we're starting to fall into managerial netherworld there. Please, no mention of Rogers Hornsby.

Dusty Baker was a heck of a player, and Mike Hargrove wasn't too bad.

Alan Smithee · 09-07-2002, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Other than Ward, Selee, Hanlon, I think almost all managers pre-1900 should get an asterisk. It wasn't really the profession that we know today. As for Anson I suspect that most of his success was derived from having King Kelly around both for his on-field talents and smarts.

I tend to agree about pre-1900 managers (though harry wright was also a manager in the sense we think of it today) I

Anson does get some credit for assembling a very good team and for running it. I do think his downfall was that of hubris. " thinking oneself to be among the gods' is a pretty good description of the decline of Cap anson.

SmedIndy · 09-07-2002, 11:47 AM

Anson and Charlie Comiskey deserve a top 10 mention for excellent player - managers!

Duque · 09-07-2002, 02:21 PM

Frank Robinson?

How good does one have to be as a player to make up for managerial failures? Ted Williams was not a great manager - but leagues ahead of other players.

VNV Nation · 09-07-2002, 03:16 PM

I thought Robinson was a hell of a manager. Won manager of the year in '89 and probably deserved it in '82.

pathogan · 09-08-2002, 11:46 AM

... Buck O'neal, cool Papa bell... how about YOGI? couple of pennants and a great great player

09-06-2002, 11:51 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Best Combo - Player/MGR The HOF Hopes thread gave me this idea............... Which man has the best combination of playing and managing career? Some bad players were great managers. Some great players were bad managers. Who was both a very-good to great player and a very-good to great manager? John McGraw? Joe Torre? Gil Hodges? Someone else? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

09-07-2002, 12:21 AM	#3
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Lou Boudreau, player-manager-MVP of the 1948 Indians belongs on the list somewhere as does Frank Chance. Curiously, Chance had pretty good stats up to the time he became a player-manager in 1905 but his numbers started to slip after the 06 season. Chance himself said the pressure of doing both jobs caused his decline as a player __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

09-07-2002, 01:09 AM	#9
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	My immediate first thoughts were Torre, Chance, and McGraw. Not sure about others, but a very good question. Actually, it depends a lot on how you weight the player v. manager sides. If it's total value between the two, then guys like Rose could be considered, just from his greatness as a player, but doesnt make much sense in the context of the thread. F. Robby qualifies that way to a lesser extent though he has legit managerial credentials. Last edited by Skip : 09-07-2002 at 01:12 AM.

09-07-2002, 02:21 PM	#13
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	Frank Robinson? How good does one have to be as a player to make up for managerial failures? Ted Williams was not a great manager - but leagues ahead of other players. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

09-08-2002, 11:46 AM	#15
pathogan william Blake's Innkeeper Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 2,828	Rube foster... ... Buck O'neal, cool Papa bell... how about YOGI? couple of pennants and a great great player

09-07-2002, 12:15 AM	#2
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	That's a good question. I take it you mean, something like the Bill James power-speed number... I would rank them like this: 1. McGraw 2. Torre 3. Hodges 4. Tris Speaker 5. Frank Robinson probably forgetting someone important. john montgomery ward would make it if you count player/manager/executive

09-07-2002, 12:28 AM	#4
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Thanks. Chance was a stupid omission, should be top 5. Frankly I'm shocked any Red Sox fan would pick Boudreau as a great manager.

09-07-2002, 12:52 AM	#6
Alan Smithee Guest Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 152	Fred Clarke comes to mind right away. A really good manager and a very fine player. He got annoying after he got rich but that came after he stopped managing. -Im never sure what to make of cap anson as manager. I suspect he was pretty good for the first 7 or 8 years but his ego just took over everything and eventually destroyed the team. still a really great player and a good manager for about a decade. its an impressive record. -- Joe cronin ws a better manager than boudreau and maybe a beter player. -miller huggins was a terrific leadoff man and a ok second baseman. did not play for a long time but he was good.people tend to forget that. - Hugie jennings was a very good player for a short time and a very good manager for a short time. as manager I think he hung around for far too long but he did win three straight pennants. I think Schondeisnt was overated as a manager but he was not what id call bad . and of course he was a first rate player.

09-07-2002, 01:04 AM	#7
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Other than Ward, Selee, Hanlon, I think almost all managers pre-1900 should get an asterisk. It wasn't really the profession that we know today. As for Anson I suspect that most of his success was derived from having King Kelly around both for his on-field talents and smarts.

09-07-2002, 01:06 AM	#8
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	What, no mention of Clark Griffith?

09-07-2002, 01:36 AM	#10
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Ack...Mickey Cochrane deserves a mention. By the Lou Boudreau standard we could add Frankie Frisch, although we're starting to fall into managerial netherworld there. Please, no mention of Rogers Hornsby. Dusty Baker was a heck of a player, and Mike Hargrove wasn't too bad.

09-07-2002, 11:47 AM	#12
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Anson and Charlie Comiskey deserve a top 10 mention for excellent player - managers!

09-07-2002, 03:16 PM	#14
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I thought Robinson was a hell of a manager. Won manager of the year in '89 and probably deserved it in '82.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
combo	henryplace	2003 Baseball Trivia Archives	9	04-13-2003 12:35 AM