Starting Pitchers As MVPs

Max Power · 09-03-2002, 07:30 PM

Confession - - I've always kinda/sorta sided with those who say a starting pitcher goes only every five days, whereas a position player plays everyday, therefore a position player is always more valubale than a SP.

Today, I heard another approach which now was me thinking twice - - -

An everyday player gets about 650 PA in a full season.

But, a starting pitcher has about 900 PA (in terms of batters faced) in a season.

So, who helps the team more often? Your thoughts?

Fuzzy Bear · 09-03-2002, 07:44 PM

I have no problem with a starting pitcher as MVP.

I have lots of problems with a relief pitcher as MVP.

I have a suggestion. Let there be a "Babe Ruth Award" for the best position player and the Cy Young Award for the best pitcher.
Then let there be a separate ballot between the two for the MVP.

VNV Nation · 09-03-2002, 07:46 PM

In most years there are usually 3-4 hitters who are great offensively and defensively, so that could make them more valuable than pitchers.

But there are a lot of years where the Cy Young is more valuable than the MVP, I think.

I would take the top starting pitcher over any type of DH/1B guy, unless it's Lou Gehrig or someone. The A's can lose Jason Giambi and replace him with nobody (Scott Hatteberg), but if they lost Hudson or Zito they would be sunk.

Skip · 09-03-2002, 07:53 PM

I'd vote for a SP as MVP, but it would take a lot of convincing and a special set of circumstances. I am biased toward everyday players - not totally, but somewhat. The 650/900 PA argument doesnt change that.

JamesI · 09-03-2002, 08:03 PM

I would vote for a starter in the right circumstances. Pedro a few years ago or Schilling this year if Bonds or Pujols weren't doing so well. A reliever on the other hand, that would have to be a season for the ages to get an mvp vote from me. I hate listening to Baseball tonight people try to talk Smoltz or Gagne into a Cy Young or MVP.

gyb13 · 09-03-2002, 08:11 PM

I have no qualms voting for a SP in the present format.

Ideally, I'd like to see just two awards - one for hitting and one for pitching. No need to discern between the two in naming one player the best of all.

VNV Nation · 09-03-2002, 08:41 PM

Oh another thing...looking at it mathematically....

A hitter is only going to get about 1/9 or 11 percent or so of his team's plate appearances. A starting pitcher with 240 innings is getting over 16 percent of his team's innings, about 21 percent of the starts.

There are more pitchers needed than anything. With 30 teams, that's 150 available starting pitching spots. If the Giants offered Barry Bonds to the D-Backs for Randy Johnson, Arizona would laugh in their faces.

qtlaw · 09-03-2002, 09:01 PM

Notwithstanding the 650/900 AB argument, the difference maker for me is that the everyday player can have an impact everyday, the starting pitcher is still only around once every 5 days. Even if a pitcher won every start, say 33-0, what contributions is he really making for the other 129 games?

moose · 09-03-2002, 10:08 PM

i have no problem with a SP as an mvp.

there are differences, though. if every sportswriter thinks randy johnson is infintessimally better than curt schilling, randy probably wins the cy young. on the other hand (in theory), they shouldn't vote randy for mvp if he's only debatably the best player on his own team.

Max Power · 09-03-2002, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by qtlaw
Notwithstanding the 650/900 AB argument, the difference maker for me is that the everyday player can have an impact everyday, the starting pitcher is still only around once every 5 days. Even if a pitcher won every start, say 33-0, what contributions is he really making for the other 129 games?

OK, but, how about all those games where the hitter goes Oh'fer or has only one or two meaningless hits?

VNV Nation · 09-03-2002, 10:10 PM

Granted, but how many of even an MVP's games are 0-for-4, 1-for-4...not much impact.

Consider, a standard game for a Schilling/Pedro type...7 IP, 2 ER...nothing special, but they obviously would have an enormous impact on winning that game. What would a hitter have to do to match that? Hit two homers? I don't think there's anything a hitter could do to match an eight-inning shutout performance in one game.

SmedIndy · 09-03-2002, 11:03 PM

When the SP is dominant, like Pedro, or RJ, then sure, he can be an MVP.

The key is "dominant"....Pedro got shafted as MVP, but I wouldn't put just an "average" Cy Young season high on the MVP charts.

moose · 09-03-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
When the SP is dominant, like Pedro, or RJ, then sure, he can be an MVP.

The key is "dominant"....Pedro got shafted as MVP, but I wouldn't put just an "average" Cy Young season high on the MVP charts.

this sums up my position quite nicely.

rcartman28 · 09-04-2002, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
When the SP is dominant, like Pedro, or RJ, then sure, he can be an MVP.

The key is "dominant"....Pedro got shafted as MVP, but I wouldn't put just an "average" Cy Young season high on the MVP charts.

i agree with that, too. Pedro did get screwed on the MVP a few years ago, even though I read Bill James argument in Win Shares that the best starting pitchers earn fewer "Win Shares" than the best everyday players.

pwdennis · 09-04-2002, 09:48 AM

I have no problem with a starting pitcher, having a supelative year, being voted the MVP. I also would have no problem with a reliever, used in the late 60s-early 70s manner (Radatz,Wyatt, Marshall) winning the MVP

09-03-2002, 07:30 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Starting Pitchers As MVPs Confession - - I've always kinda/sorta sided with those who say a starting pitcher goes only every five days, whereas a position player plays everyday, therefore a position player is always more valubale than a SP. Today, I heard another approach which now was me thinking twice - - - An everyday player gets about 650 PA in a full season. But, a starting pitcher has about 900 PA (in terms of batters faced) in a season. So, who helps the team more often? Your thoughts? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

09-03-2002, 08:11 PM	#6
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	I have no qualms voting for a SP in the present format. Ideally, I'd like to see just two awards - one for hitting and one for pitching. No need to discern between the two in naming one player the best of all. __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

09-04-2002, 09:48 AM	#15
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I have no problem with a starting pitcher, having a supelative year, being voted the MVP. I also would have no problem with a reliever, used in the late 60s-early 70s manner (Radatz,Wyatt, Marshall) winning the MVP __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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09-03-2002, 07:44 PM	#2
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	I have no problem with a starting pitcher as MVP. I have lots of problems with a relief pitcher as MVP. I have a suggestion. Let there be a "Babe Ruth Award" for the best position player and the Cy Young Award for the best pitcher. Then let there be a separate ballot between the two for the MVP.

09-03-2002, 07:46 PM	#3
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	In most years there are usually 3-4 hitters who are great offensively and defensively, so that could make them more valuable than pitchers. But there are a lot of years where the Cy Young is more valuable than the MVP, I think. I would take the top starting pitcher over any type of DH/1B guy, unless it's Lou Gehrig or someone. The A's can lose Jason Giambi and replace him with nobody (Scott Hatteberg), but if they lost Hudson or Zito they would be sunk.

09-03-2002, 07:53 PM	#4
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	I'd vote for a SP as MVP, but it would take a lot of convincing and a special set of circumstances. I am biased toward everyday players - not totally, but somewhat. The 650/900 PA argument doesnt change that.

09-03-2002, 08:03 PM	#5
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I would vote for a starter in the right circumstances. Pedro a few years ago or Schilling this year if Bonds or Pujols weren't doing so well. A reliever on the other hand, that would have to be a season for the ages to get an mvp vote from me. I hate listening to Baseball tonight people try to talk Smoltz or Gagne into a Cy Young or MVP.

09-03-2002, 08:41 PM	#7
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Oh another thing...looking at it mathematically.... A hitter is only going to get about 1/9 or 11 percent or so of his team's plate appearances. A starting pitcher with 240 innings is getting over 16 percent of his team's innings, about 21 percent of the starts. There are more pitchers needed than anything. With 30 teams, that's 150 available starting pitching spots. If the Giants offered Barry Bonds to the D-Backs for Randy Johnson, Arizona would laugh in their faces.

09-03-2002, 09:01 PM	#8
qtlaw Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: El Cerrito, CA Posts: 668	Notwithstanding the 650/900 AB argument, the difference maker for me is that the everyday player can have an impact everyday, the starting pitcher is still only around once every 5 days. Even if a pitcher won every start, say 33-0, what contributions is he really making for the other 129 games?

09-03-2002, 10:08 PM	#9
moose Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Socs Posts: 3,400	i have no problem with a SP as an mvp. there are differences, though. if every sportswriter thinks randy johnson is infintessimally better than curt schilling, randy probably wins the cy young. on the other hand (in theory), they shouldn't vote randy for mvp if he's only debatably the best player on his own team.

09-03-2002, 10:10 PM	#11
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Granted, but how many of even an MVP's games are 0-for-4, 1-for-4...not much impact. Consider, a standard game for a Schilling/Pedro type...7 IP, 2 ER...nothing special, but they obviously would have an enormous impact on winning that game. What would a hitter have to do to match that? Hit two homers? I don't think there's anything a hitter could do to match an eight-inning shutout performance in one game.

09-03-2002, 11:03 PM	#12
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	When the SP is dominant, like Pedro, or RJ, then sure, he can be an MVP. The key is "dominant"....Pedro got shafted as MVP, but I wouldn't put just an "average" Cy Young season high on the MVP charts.

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