Least likeable players

ESPN.com's list of the week this week was Least Likeable Players.

Here's their top 10:

1. Ty Cobb
A violent psychopath and stone racist, Cobb hit opposing players as hard as he hit baseballs. And that's really saying something, since he had a lifetime .367 batting average.

2. John Rocker
He didn't know when to keep his mouth shut and hasn't learned a thing since then.

3. Albert Belle
Look for his picture next to "surly" in the dictionary. He didn't discriminate, though -- he was nasty to media, fans and other players, including his own teammates.

4. Cap Anson
A Hall of Famer who played in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Anson is generally considered the leading force behind getting blacks banned from Major League Baseball until Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947.

5. Carl Mays
Spitball pitcher was universally disliked by other players ... even before he threw the pitch that killed Ray Chapman.

6. Roger Clemens
The ultimate headhunter and mercenary, the Rocket is liked only by fans of his own team ... and sometimes not even them.

7. Hal Chase
The great-fielding first baseman from the early 1900s was often accused -- though never convicted -- of fixing games.

8. Dick Allen
The Albert Belle of his era.

9. Pete Rose
The only player to make both our "most beloved" and "least likeable" lists. Even before all the gambling allegations, a lot of folks hated Rose for his overly aggressive play (injuring catcher Ray Fosse in a meaningless All-Star Game and picking a fight with tiny Bud Harrelson of the Mets are two of the more famous examples).

10. Reggie Jackson
The straw that stirred up a lot of venom from the fans.

Honorable mentions
Barry Bonds, Roberto Alomar, Steve Garvey, Carl Everett, Eddie Murray, Jim Bouton, Rickey Henderson

Online voting resulted in this list:

1. Roger Clemens
2. John Rocker
3. Ty Cobb
4. Rickey Henderson
5. Paul O'Neill
6. Barry Bonds
7. Albert Belle
8. Pete Rose
9. Roberto Alomar
10. Dave Kingman


I think ESPN's list is pretty good, with a couple of changes.

Cap Anson: granted, his comments and actions are abhorrent from current perspective, but in his day was he not a well-loved father figure to his players? And, after he retired, he managed to get himself elected to public office in Chicago.

Barry Bonds: Comes in at #3 for me.

Robby Alomar: From what I've heard, he's basically a good guy who made a major mistake. Any comments?

Possible additions: Swede Risberg (the most culpable of the 8 Black Sox), Steve Howe, Darryl Strawberry, Chad Curtis (at least 3 fights with teammates: Kevin Mitchell, Royce Clayton and Derek Jeter), Will Clark (accused by Kevin Mitchell of calling him the n-word).

Any thoughts?

--Dave

[NetShrine]

Excellent thread material. Thanks Dave.

I am surprised that Clemens came in at # 1 - given the field. Kinda funny considering how good his stuff sells on QVC.

O'Neill making this list - - this is funny. Some friends and I were talking about this the other day - how hated he is in Boston and in Met-land. Have to say, when he's on your team, you love him.

Agreed on Alomar. WHat probably also hurts him is that he's moved around so much. No real home base of fans or press to build him back up.

Steve Howe has to be on the list. Dick Allen was no where near Belle - I don't get ESPN on that. BTW, teammates seemed to like both Belle and Allen - that has to count for something.

Cobb and Rocker both deserve to be up there. No Sheffield anywhere? Hmmmm.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by NetShrine
O'Neill making this list - - this is funny. Some friends and I were talking about this the other day - how hated he is in Boston and in Met-land. Have to say, when he's on your team, you love him.

You got that right. The Ulf Samuelson of baseball, except Ulfie beats up his opponents, not water coolers.

[NetShrine]

The guy has 2,000+ hits, 1,200+ RBI, a lifetime BA around .290, 5 World Series rings, and the rep of being a great fielding RF.

Not many other players can claim to have 2000/1200/.290/5. The man has no reason whatsoever to hang his head.

[BuzzBuzzard]

It is not his on-the field- accomplishments that his gets banged on. It is on the field personality that he DESERVES to be criticized for. He's a baby who never had a call go his way. Slamming helmets and arguing strikes and calls at first base when the game is already over is what annoys people. He is a world class whiner, plain and simple.

And don't count the rings too much. Lots of mutts have rings, too, for being in the right place at the right time. Does not mean they were contributors. I say this in the general sense.

[mainsr]

Originally posted by NetShrine

I am surprised that Clemens came in at # 1 - given the field. Kinda funny considering how good his stuff sells on QVC.

Agreed on Alomar. WHat probably also hurts him is that he's moved around so much. No real home base of fans or press to build him back up.

Steve Howe has to be on the list. Dick Allen was no where near Belle - I don't get ESPN on that. BTW, teammates seemed to like both Belle and Allen - that has to count for something.

Cobb and Rocker both deserve to be up there. No Sheffield anywhere? Hmmmm.

A few comments:
1. Clemens as No. 1 in the online proves that Boston must be the most wired city in the U.S.
2. Alomar: 14 years, 4 teams. Plenty of guys have moved around as much. Hornsby had 14 years as a regular and played for 4 teams. The Hit King played for 4 teams. Reggie played for 4. I think people get mad at Alomar only for the spitting. That's too bad; he's quite a player.
3. All the repeat drugheads should be on the list, in my view.
4. I don't know about Albert Belle or Sheffield. Both seem to be guys who are liked by their teammates and respected by opponents. The guys who hate them are the sportswriters. Some guys, like Howe or Strawberry, are genuinely reprehensible human beings who care about themselves far more than teammates. Belle always struck me as a great guy to have on your team who just wanted to left the hell alone.
5. Dick Allen always has been portrayed as an extremely divisive clubhouse presence. I'd rather have Belle on my team.
6. How about wifebeater Al Martin? Carl Everett should get more than an honorable mention in my book. And how about all the swordsmen who have fathered illegitimate children? I know about Pokey Reese because they had that piece on him last summer in SI, but I'm sure there are many others.
7. How about Rey Ordonez, Official Whipping Boy of the NetShrine Discussion Forum? It's not his fault that he's overrated, but bigamy and stiffing his ex on child support are.

[NetShrine]

Martin also got married - while still married. Guess he was confused?

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
And don't count the rings too much. Lots of mutts have rings, too, for being in the right place at the right time. Does not mean they were contributors. I say this in the general sense.

One or two could be a fluke - 5 means something. Plus, his WS won-loss record is incredible. I think he's something like 20-3 in World Series games. And, he's had big parts in many of those wins - the Polonia catch in 96, the Beneitz AB in 00, probably many more? He has 33 H+BB in 22 WS games.

[BuzzBuzzard]

As I have said before, because the way the Yankee teams have been built, you could put a lot of RFs out there and they would have 5 rings, too, IMO.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
As I have said before, because the way the Yankee teams have been built, you could put a lot of RFs out there and they would have 5 rings, too, IMO.

Let me look into that Buzz.

As far as:

"It is on the field personality that he DESERVES to be criticized for. He's a baby who never had a call go his way. Slamming helmets and arguing strikes and calls at first base when the game is already over is what annoys people. He is a world class whiner, plain and simple."

I'll take that routine any day over the guy who just shrugs or laughs after a ground out or K-looking. I'll take the heart of O'Neill over the talent of say, ah, you pick the player - there are many out there who play without passion. Use Jim Edmonds as a default.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Not the first time and not the last, but we agree to disagree. Punching out a water cooler after taking an obvious strike three is not heart, it is infantile.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Not the first time and not the last, but we agree to disagree. Punching out a water cooler after taking an obvious strike three is not heart, it is infantile.

It's also baseball!

[BuzzBuzzard]

And you can count on one hand the rest of the other 750 big leaguers who act as immaturely.

[NetShrine]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
As I have said before, because the way the Yankee teams have been built, you could put a lot of RFs out there and they would have 5 rings, too, IMO.

The numbers on the left are overall rank for all AL OFers. The players that show are only RFers:

AMERICAN LEAGUE CAREER 1993-2000 OF

RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Manny Ramirez 8.94
4 Tim Salmon 8.05
11 Jay Buhner 6.74
13 Paul O'Neill 6.71
18 Jose Canseco 6.48
20 Shawn Green 6.45
25 Matt Lawton 6.14

So, OK Buzz, yes, if the Yanks had Manny, Salmon or Buhner instead of Paul, they probably would have been just as well off. Is three "a lot"?

[Duque]

Originally posted by NetShrine
No Sheffield anywhere? Hmmmm.

Call me a softie...last year I hated the guy, but after reading more about him, especially after that Spring Training trade debacle, I've done a 180 on the Sheff. I guess it's possible for even the most immature players to grow with age (see Brown, Kevin).

Incidentally, I don't understand how Clemens is a "mercenary," considering he's pitched for only 3 teams in his career (as opposed to the aforementioned Kevin Brown, who's pitched for at least 5) and the fact that all his teammates, whether they be with Boston, Toronto, or New York, rave about his dedication and teamwork.

As for least likeable players - for some reason, I've always had a visceral reaction to Timo Perez. Can't explain it, just do.