Mike Piazza - Is this The End? - Page 2

BuzzBuzzard · 08-24-2002, 09:47 AM

If you were the proverbial hair away from the record books, wouldn't you want to nail it down? I would.

TGwynn19 · 08-24-2002, 09:53 AM

I would focus on 500HR's rather than 362, or whatever Fisk has.

SmedIndy · 08-24-2002, 09:58 AM

If I was hurting the team (not that Piazza is) I'd stop playing and forget about any records.

TGwynn19 · 08-24-2002, 10:04 AM

Piazza may not be hurting his team this season by catching, but he is hurting the Mets' future by playing there.

BuzzBuzzard · 08-24-2002, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TGwynn19
Piazza may not be hurting his team this season by catching, but he is hurting the Mets' future by playing there.

How so?

TGwynn19 · 08-24-2002, 01:39 PM

Piazza is a terrible defensive catcher, but an awesome offensive one. If he contiunes to catch, and his offensive production contiunes to decline at his current pace, he will no longer be an above average offensive player-regardless of position. He is locked into a long term deal with the Mets and for him to continue to be an upper-tier hitter for the length of his contract he needs to move to 1B, LF or some other less physically demanding position, IMO.

hugenymetsfan · 08-24-2002, 04:29 PM

Mike Piazza has had a decline, but you tell me what team wouldn't mind having those stats from the catcher slot. Posada aside, there is no catcher in either league that has his power or clutch hitting ability. Yes, I feel a move to first would benefit this team. Would it prolong his career? Absolutely. But I guarantee this....If he got a decent hitter around him, he would continue to put up some very impressive numbers, no matter where he plays.

nyy26wc · 08-24-2002, 05:31 PM

Piazza's a 33 year old catcher with an OPS 120 points above average. Let's look at what historical precedents we can find.

According to the sabermetric baseball encyclopedia, there's only 3 other catchers who have been 100+ points above the league average at the age of 33. Normally, I would just look at players with the 3.1 PA/game requirement, but due to the shortage of catchers who do that each year, I've lowered the standards a bit to 400 PA.

Let's look at the precedents--

Roy Campanella, +220 points, 1955: This was Campanella's last hurrah as a productive player. He only had 2 years left in him: .727 OPS vs. league average of .748 and .703 vs. .748. He also had -10 and -17 RCAA in those last 2 years.

But, there is a signficant difference between Campanella and Piazza, which could eliminate Roy as a good match. Campanella's 1955 season came after a terrible 1954 year, in which he posted a .686 OPS vs. the league average of .769 and -24 RCAA. It's not unheard of for a player to start his decline, have a bounceback last hurrah productive season and then resume his decline.

Gabby Hartnett, +109, 1934: Hartnett had plenty of production left in him in his 3 years left with 100+ games--

Code:

OPS                      YEAR   DIFF  PLAYER LEAGUE
Gabby Hartnett           1935   .201    .949   .748 
Gabby Hartnett           1936   .059    .804   .745 
Gabby Hartnett           1937   .232    .971   .739

Mickey Tettleton, +.103, 1994: Really not applicable to the discussion of declining catchers, since he was never a starter again.

Gene Tenace, +.107, 1980: Tenace was the only one on the list who got on with 400+ PA and not with the normal 3.1 PA/game qualification. Tenace had a couple of good years left in him (1981: .819 OPS vs. .704 average, 9 RCAA; 1982: .936 vs. 715, 15 RCAA). However, they were both in a backup role. He then concluded his career as a backup with the 1983 Pirates.

VNV Nation · 08-24-2002, 05:34 PM

Lee -- I take it that you are not optimistic about Piazza's future then?

nyy26wc · 08-24-2002, 06:40 PM

It depends on what we're talking about.

I'm pretty optimistic that Piazza will continue to be a productive player. But, I'm not optimistic about his chances to remain one of the best players in baseball, unless he gets a position change.

VNV Nation · 08-24-2002, 06:44 PM

I assume you're assuming, as I would, that he'd hit better than his recent levels if moved to another position.

JamesI · 08-24-2002, 11:00 PM

While I agree Piazza should move, would a move possibly upset him and cause him to play worse? If he is against the move, that could hurt the team.

SmedIndy · 08-25-2002, 09:41 AM

The Mets are in a dilemma, then.

His catching can hurt the club. By catching, he puts extra wear and tear on his body, which can lower his offense and hurt the club.

But if he doesn't want to move, then it could upset him anyway.

This is where a manager or GM with some cajones would settle it once and for all...

TGwynn19 · 08-25-2002, 10:46 AM

Why not compromise?? If Piazza is dead set on getting the HR record then let him catch 2-3 times a week and play 1B the rest. Piazza seems to be cutting his nose off to spite his face.

JamesI · 08-25-2002, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
This is where a manager or GM with some cajones would settle it once and for all...

Davey Johnson moved Ripken to third when he didn't want to go. Maybe someone needs to just tell Piazza to go to 1st and put him in the lineup there.

08-24-2002, 09:47 AM	#16
BuzzBuzzard NetShrine's Conscience Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The bowels of Shea Posts: 3,062	If you were the proverbial hair away from the record books, wouldn't you want to nail it down? I would. __________________ Buzzard You Gotta Believe

08-24-2002, 05:31 PM	#23
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	Piazza's a 33 year old catcher with an OPS 120 points above average. Let's look at what historical precedents we can find. According to the sabermetric baseball encyclopedia, there's only 3 other catchers who have been 100+ points above the league average at the age of 33. Normally, I would just look at players with the 3.1 PA/game requirement, but due to the shortage of catchers who do that each year, I've lowered the standards a bit to 400 PA. Let's look at the precedents-- Roy Campanella, +220 points, 1955: This was Campanella's last hurrah as a productive player. He only had 2 years left in him: .727 OPS vs. league average of .748 and .703 vs. .748. He also had -10 and -17 RCAA in those last 2 years. But, there is a signficant difference between Campanella and Piazza, which could eliminate Roy as a good match. Campanella's 1955 season came after a terrible 1954 year, in which he posted a .686 OPS vs. the league average of .769 and -24 RCAA. It's not unheard of for a player to start his decline, have a bounceback last hurrah productive season and then resume his decline. Gabby Hartnett, +109, 1934: Hartnett had plenty of production left in him in his 3 years left with 100+ games-- Code: OPS YEAR DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE Gabby Hartnett 1935 .201 .949 .748 Gabby Hartnett 1936 .059 .804 .745 Gabby Hartnett 1937 .232 .971 .739 Mickey Tettleton, +.103, 1994: Really not applicable to the discussion of declining catchers, since he was never a starter again. Gene Tenace, +.107, 1980: Tenace was the only one on the list who got on with 400+ PA and not with the normal 3.1 PA/game qualification. Tenace had a couple of good years left in him (1981: .819 OPS vs. .704 average, 9 RCAA; 1982: .936 vs. 715, 15 RCAA). However, they were both in a backup role. He then concluded his career as a backup with the 1983 Pirates. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

08-24-2002, 06:40 PM	#25
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	It depends on what we're talking about. I'm pretty optimistic that Piazza will continue to be a productive player. But, I'm not optimistic about his chances to remain one of the best players in baseball, unless he gets a position change. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

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08-24-2002, 09:53 AM	#17
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	I would focus on 500HR's rather than 362, or whatever Fisk has.

08-24-2002, 09:58 AM	#18
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	If I was hurting the team (not that Piazza is) I'd stop playing and forget about any records.

08-24-2002, 10:04 AM	#19
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	Piazza may not be hurting his team this season by catching, but he is hurting the Mets' future by playing there.

08-24-2002, 01:39 PM	#21
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	Piazza is a terrible defensive catcher, but an awesome offensive one. If he contiunes to catch, and his offensive production contiunes to decline at his current pace, he will no longer be an above average offensive player-regardless of position. He is locked into a long term deal with the Mets and for him to continue to be an upper-tier hitter for the length of his contract he needs to move to 1B, LF or some other less physically demanding position, IMO.

08-24-2002, 04:29 PM	#22
hugenymetsfan NetShrine Rookie Of The Year Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Arlington, VA...Hopefully the future home of some disenchanted franchise Posts: 63	Mike Piazza has had a decline, but you tell me what team wouldn't mind having those stats from the catcher slot. Posada aside, there is no catcher in either league that has his power or clutch hitting ability. Yes, I feel a move to first would benefit this team. Would it prolong his career? Absolutely. But I guarantee this....If he got a decent hitter around him, he would continue to put up some very impressive numbers, no matter where he plays.

08-24-2002, 05:34 PM	#24
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Lee -- I take it that you are not optimistic about Piazza's future then?

08-24-2002, 06:44 PM	#26
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I assume you're assuming, as I would, that he'd hit better than his recent levels if moved to another position.

08-24-2002, 11:00 PM	#27
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	While I agree Piazza should move, would a move possibly upset him and cause him to play worse? If he is against the move, that could hurt the team.

08-25-2002, 09:41 AM	#28
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	The Mets are in a dilemma, then. His catching can hurt the club. By catching, he puts extra wear and tear on his body, which can lower his offense and hurt the club. But if he doesn't want to move, then it could upset him anyway. This is where a manager or GM with some cajones would settle it once and for all...

08-25-2002, 10:46 AM	#29
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	Why not compromise?? If Piazza is dead set on getting the HR record then let him catch 2-3 times a week and play 1B the rest. Piazza seems to be cutting his nose off to spite his face.

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