Do you believe in The Curse?

VNV Nation · 08-18-2002, 01:23 PM

I think most of us are sophisticated enough to realize that there probably wasn't any kind of metaphysical/voodoo backlash for sellling Babe Ruth. Yet, for all of my life, and especially since 1986, I have just always assumed that, no matter how good the Red Sox were, you didn't have to take them seriously as a threat to win the WS, and there was just no way in hell they were going to beat the Yankees in a race or in a playoff series, for no other reason than the Yankees beat the Red Sox, that's how it is and always will be.

Please discuss.

satchel · 08-18-2002, 01:30 PM

I can't say I believe that there's really any curse, but the power of suggestion is strong and both baseball players and fans are a notoriously suspicious lot.

Some teams can pick themselves up and dust themselves off after a bad stretch. The 2001 Sox are an example of team which did not, but rather snowballed to a miserable finish. While that can obviously be attributed to factors other than a curse, the tendency of players and fans alike to is to throw up their hands and shrug it off to mysterious forces at work.

This year, there's no curse at work - just a team that got off to a great start by playing somewhat over its head, that was bound to come back to earth eventually. They still have a good shot at the wildcard (though it would have been better had they fared better against A's and Anaheim the last couple weeks) and in a short series could go far with the 1-2 punch of Martinez and Lowe.

(wow, that was my 1,000th post. satchel - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.)

VNV Nation · 08-18-2002, 01:39 PM

Satchel, I agree with you, but still...if the Sox are in a race with the Yankees next year, five years from now, 20 years from now, I'm not ever going to think they can win -- until they finally do.

pwdennis · 08-18-2002, 01:43 PM

There is no curse, any more than there is an Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or a baseball commisioner

moose · 08-18-2002, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by satchel
(wow, that was my 1,000th post. satchel - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.)

this reminds me of a great "deep thought":
"Blow ye winds, Like the trumpet blows; But without that noise.'

anyway, there's not a curse, just a yearly red sox collapse that you can set your watch to.....

JamesI · 08-18-2002, 02:33 PM

I think the players have convinced themselves that they can't win, that's the curse.

TimmyB · 08-18-2002, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwdennis
There is no curse, any more than there is an Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or a baseball commisioner

I voted "don't be silly"... however, if you are referring to being Cursed by the (ahem) scribe who thought up the curse in the first place... that's another story...

Ytown Tribe fan · 08-18-2002, 03:11 PM

How about the Curse before the Curse? In 1916, they traded Tris Speaker to the Tribe for a pitcher who gave them a few good years and some cash.

Imagine an outfield with Ruth and Speaker for over a decade.

TimmyB · 08-18-2002, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ytown Tribe fan
How about the Curse before the Curse? In 1916, they traded Tris Speaker to the Tribe for a pitcher who gave them a few good years and some cash.

Imagine an outfield with Ruth and Speaker for over a decade.

How about the Curse after the Curse? How about signing one non-white player between 1947 and 1961?

soxfan121 · 08-18-2002, 04:43 PM

A "curse" is simply a way to explain something that either, A.) you cannot explain using rational means, or, B.) you are unwilling to do the mental work necessary to actually explain the problem.

There is no "curse" when it comes to the Red Sox. The Ruth sale certainly crippled the organization into the late 30's - as any transaction involving the greatest player of the era would do to any frnachise. From 1940-1961, the Red Sox were cosnsitently "one player short" and had many great seasons, losing their only WS because of a great baserunning play (and not a bad fielding play as some would insist). As Timmy B correctly points out, not signing any players of color until 1961 certainly crippled the franchise into the 1970's. Since the mid-1970's the Red Sox have been in contention pretty consistently and have made the playoffs half-a-dozen times, advancing to the WS twice. Not many other franchises can claim such a successful track record over the past 30 years. 1986 is remembered for Bill Buckner, but anyone who watched and remembers the game knows that Clemens asking out of the game, the decision to summon Stanley, and Calvin Schiraldi all deserve more blame than poor Billy B.

Anyone who believes in the curse has bought themselves intellectual laziness; there are good, rational explanations for the successes and failures of the Red Sox over the past 80 years, in a game where irrational things happen all the time. Buying into the fantasy of "the curse" only serves to make the perpatrator of the fallacy, Dan Shaugnessy, hack writer, a richer man. There is no curse. There have only been bad judgements, racism, bad management, wimpy pitchers, and great plays by the other team to blame.

Skip · 08-18-2002, 04:51 PM

I voted not sure. To me this is a stupid invention that has acquired a life of its own.

However, I think a large portion of SoxNation does believe in it, whether consciously or subconsciouly. Expectation can affect performance. The CubFan repuation is that of not caring about winning or losing so long as there is fun; the SoxFan seems to be about *poor us* to the point where if that went away, many wouldnt have anything left to talk about.

Before the hackles go way way up, I'm talking about general reputations or *average* fans, not the intelligent members of NetShrine.

hmrsf · 08-18-2002, 05:05 PM

IMHO. I believe more Yankee fans believe in the blasted curse than Sox fans. Read the book......double thumbs down.

I feel this stupid notion has taken on a life of it's own. If the Sox would just play the last 50 games like they played 1st 50 games they would be in a stinking race.

BTW, don't tell me about elimination until the day we are.......... because I just won't hear you.

Skip · 08-18-2002, 05:10 PM

BTW hmrsf - Happy April 140th?

(ducking).

hmrsf · 08-18-2002, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skip
BTW hmrsf - Happy April 140th?

(ducking).

Skip April is over. Someone peeked.

...........But an April like Aug/Sept would not be a bad thing!

VNV Nation · 08-18-2002, 07:10 PM

I think you can throw racism out the window. Certainly, the Red Sox would have done quite a bit better had they signed, say, Willie Mays, as they had a chance to, but the Yankees didn't exactly lead the way in integrating the sport.

View Poll Results: Do you believe in The Curse of the Bambino?
Duh, of course The Curse is real.	7	33.33%
Don't be silly	11	52.38%
Not sure	3	14.29%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

08-18-2002, 01:23 PM	#1
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Poll: Do you believe in The Curse? I think most of us are sophisticated enough to realize that there probably wasn't any kind of metaphysical/voodoo backlash for sellling Babe Ruth. Yet, for all of my life, and especially since 1986, I have just always assumed that, no matter how good the Red Sox were, you didn't have to take them seriously as a threat to win the WS, and there was just no way in hell they were going to beat the Yankees in a race or in a playoff series, for no other reason than the Yankees beat the Red Sox, that's how it is and always will be. Please discuss. Last edited by VNV Nation : 08-18-2002 at 01:28 PM.

08-18-2002, 01:30 PM	#2
satchel NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,601	I can't say I believe that there's really any curse, but the power of suggestion is strong and both baseball players and fans are a notoriously suspicious lot. Some teams can pick themselves up and dust themselves off after a bad stretch. The 2001 Sox are an example of team which did not, but rather snowballed to a miserable finish. While that can obviously be attributed to factors other than a curse, the tendency of players and fans alike to is to throw up their hands and shrug it off to mysterious forces at work. This year, there's no curse at work - just a team that got off to a great start by playing somewhat over its head, that was bound to come back to earth eventually. They still have a good shot at the wildcard (though it would have been better had they fared better against A's and Anaheim the last couple weeks) and in a short series could go far with the 1-2 punch of Martinez and Lowe. (wow, that was my 1,000th post. satchel - full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.) __________________ Rare mold, old vomit - An anagram rejected by Tom Riddle

08-18-2002, 01:43 PM	#4
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	There is no curse, any more than there is an Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy or a baseball commisioner __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

08-18-2002, 05:05 PM	#12
hmrsf forum mom Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: relocation Posts: 4,298	IMHO. I believe more Yankee fans believe in the blasted curse than Sox fans. Read the book......double thumbs down. I feel this stupid notion has taken on a life of it's own. If the Sox would just play the last 50 games like they played 1st 50 games they would be in a stinking race. BTW, don't tell me about elimination until the day we are.......... because I just won't hear you. __________________ NDF who shares good karma! Get a coaster! My cup is not only 1/2 full it is brimming! We don't need no stinking Arods! Last edited by hmrsf : 08-18-2002 at 05:09 PM.

08-18-2002, 01:39 PM	#3
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Satchel, I agree with you, but still...if the Sox are in a race with the Yankees next year, five years from now, 20 years from now, I'm not ever going to think they can win -- until they finally do.

08-18-2002, 02:33 PM	#6
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	I think the players have convinced themselves that they can't win, that's the curse.

08-18-2002, 03:11 PM	#8
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	How about the Curse before the Curse? In 1916, they traded Tris Speaker to the Tribe for a pitcher who gave them a few good years and some cash. Imagine an outfield with Ruth and Speaker for over a decade.

08-18-2002, 04:43 PM	#10
soxfan121 Renounced Membership 7/9/03 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Live Free Or Die, USA Posts: 1,335	A "curse" is simply a way to explain something that either, A.) you cannot explain using rational means, or, B.) you are unwilling to do the mental work necessary to actually explain the problem. There is no "curse" when it comes to the Red Sox. The Ruth sale certainly crippled the organization into the late 30's - as any transaction involving the greatest player of the era would do to any frnachise. From 1940-1961, the Red Sox were cosnsitently "one player short" and had many great seasons, losing their only WS because of a great baserunning play (and not a bad fielding play as some would insist). As Timmy B correctly points out, not signing any players of color until 1961 certainly crippled the franchise into the 1970's. Since the mid-1970's the Red Sox have been in contention pretty consistently and have made the playoffs half-a-dozen times, advancing to the WS twice. Not many other franchises can claim such a successful track record over the past 30 years. 1986 is remembered for Bill Buckner, but anyone who watched and remembers the game knows that Clemens asking out of the game, the decision to summon Stanley, and Calvin Schiraldi all deserve more blame than poor Billy B. Anyone who believes in the curse has bought themselves intellectual laziness; there are good, rational explanations for the successes and failures of the Red Sox over the past 80 years, in a game where irrational things happen all the time. Buying into the fantasy of "the curse" only serves to make the perpatrator of the fallacy, Dan Shaugnessy, hack writer, a richer man. There is no curse. There have only been bad judgements, racism, bad management, wimpy pitchers, and great plays by the other team to blame.

08-18-2002, 04:51 PM	#11
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	I voted not sure. To me this is a stupid invention that has acquired a life of its own. However, I think a large portion of SoxNation does believe in it, whether consciously or subconsciouly. Expectation can affect performance. The CubFan repuation is that of not caring about winning or losing so long as there is fun; the SoxFan seems to be about poor us to the point where if that went away, many wouldnt have anything left to talk about. Before the hackles go way way up, I'm talking about general reputations or average fans, not the intelligent members of NetShrine.

08-18-2002, 05:10 PM	#13
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	BTW hmrsf - Happy April 140th? (ducking).

08-18-2002, 07:10 PM	#15
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I think you can throw racism out the window. Certainly, the Red Sox would have done quite a bit better had they signed, say, Willie Mays, as they had a chance to, but the Yankees didn't exactly lead the way in integrating the sport.

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