Phil Niekro

pwdennis · 08-06-2002, 11:56 PM

How good was Phil Niekro ? While the W-L record was not terribly impressive (318-274 .537), Niekro played for bad teams during most of his career. Not including his one game farewell in 1987, Niekro pitched 20 seasons for the Braves (1964-1983) going 268-230. During that 20 year span the Braves were 85 games below .500 including Niekro's contributions or 123 games below .500 if the Niekro's contributions are subtracted.

This is a bit misleading in that the Braves bounced Niekro up and down for the first three years of his career (1964-1966) not trusting knuckleball pitchers any more than any other team does. During this period the Braves went 88-74, 86-76 and 85-77, a total of 32 games over .500. During this three year stretch Phil went 6-6. This period was the transition and decline period for the remnants of the Milwaukee Braves powerhouse of the late 50s and early 60s.

Knucksie came up to stay in 1967 being used 20 times as a starter, 26 times as a reliever and going 11-9 while leading the NL in ERA. From 1967 forward Niekro went 262-224 while the Braves were 117 games below .500 (or 155 games below .500 if you subtract Knucksie's decisions).

Bill James once commented that Niekro seemed to be able to go 16-13 no matter how bad his team was. For a long time, this did seem to be true (although he never actually had a season in which he went 16-13).

YEAR BRAVES PHIL COMMENTS
1967 77-85 11-09 1.87 ERA led NL
1968 81-81 14-12 2.59 ERA - NL = 2.98
1969 93-69 23-13 2.56 ERA - NL = 3.60
1970 76-86 12-18 4.27 ERA - NL = 4.30
1971 82-80 15-14
1972 70-84 16-12
1973 76-85 13-10
1974 88-74 20-13 2.38 ERA / 302 IP
1975 67-94 15-15
1976 70-92 17-11
1977 61-101 16-20 330 IP
1978 69-93 19-18 334 IP
1979 66-94 21-20 342 IP
1980 81-80 15-18
1981 50-56 07-07
1982 89-73 17-04
1983 88-74 11-10

I think it is clear that Niekro was a consistantly good pitcher for a a pretty poor team over the bulk of his Atlanta years. During this 17 year stretch the Braves were under .500 ten times, essentially a .500 team three times, and were really decent on only four occasions. Of the post 1960 pitchers who have already retired, it seems to me that only Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton (maybe) were truly greater pitchers than Niekro, yet Niekro had to wait until 1997 to be enshrined in Cooperstown

VNV Nation · 08-07-2002, 12:13 AM

I'm not sure who you mean by post-60s pitchers who have already retired, but not counting the guys who came up in the '50s, I would rank 'em:

1. Seaver
2. Carlton
3. Marichal
4. Perry
5. Palmer
6. Niekro
7. Jenkins
8. Ryan
9. Kaat (pitched 5 innings in '50s, so sue me)
10. Sutton

pwdennis · 08-07-2002, 12:23 AM

I think you can safely list Bob Gibson (3-5 in 1959) as a post 1960 pitcher

VNV Nation · 08-07-2002, 12:27 AM

OK, then Gibson is No. 2.

sweaver · 08-07-2002, 09:20 AM

Phil Niekro was a terrific pitcher, and an even better man than a pitcher. He is from a small town in Ohio, not far from the Wheeling, WV area where I used to live. His mother still lives there. His visits back home were always regarded as special.

300 wins is pretty spectacular no matter who you are talking about, and Niekro battled the prejudice against pitchers who throw "funny." He was only great for a few scattered years, but he was always durable and consistent.

WiredTiger · 08-07-2002, 09:26 AM

This is part of the reason that I love this forum. How many other sites would a person be able to list Niekro as better than Ryan and not have himself shouted off the site?

1. Seaver
2. Carlton
3. Gibson
4. Marichal
5. Palmer
6. Perry
7. Niekro
8. Ryan
9. Jenkins
10. Kaat

08-07-2002, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredTiger
This is part of the reason that I love this forum. How many other sites would a person be able to list Niekro as better than Ryan and not have himself shouted off the site?

Amen!

SmedIndy · 08-07-2002, 09:56 AM

One wonders why knuckleballers aren't more prevalent. Probably a macho macho thing.

Niekro and Sutton are similar in that they were good pitchers for a very long time.

If Niekro pitched for the Dodgers, how long would he have had to wait?

If Sutton was stuck on the Braves, would he be as remembered as Ron Reed is today?

WT - Way to give Fergie some love.

KCBOOMER · 08-07-2002, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwdennis
I think it is clear that Niekro was a consistantly good pitcher for a a pretty poor team over the bulk of his Atlanta years. Of the post 1960 pitchers who have already retired, it seems to me that only Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton (maybe) were truly greater pitchers than Niekro, yet Niekro had to wait until 1997 to be enshrined in Cooperstown

I don't think Niekro has been treated that poorly. Seaver and Carlton are first tier HoFers and went in on the first ballot. Niekro, who retired after the the 1987 season, waited five years to get elected. This is exactly the same wait that Don Sutton endured. Interesting that if both Sutton and Niekro had spent their careers with average runs support they would have basically flip flopped career winning percentages.

sweaver · 08-07-2002, 11:03 AM

I'd take any of these guys. Sutton too.

I'll rank them: 1) Seaver, 2.) Gibson, 3.) Carlton, 4.) Marichal, 5.) Palmer, 6.) Perry, 7.) Jenkins, 8.) Ryan, 9.) Niekro, 10.) Sutton, 11.) Kaat, and specify that I think each of them are Hall of Famers.

pwdennis · 08-07-2002, 11:07 AM

I think both Sutton & Niekro were terribly mistreated by HOF voters

My list would be :
1. Seaver
2. Carlton
3. Niekro
4. Marichal
5. Gibson
6. Blyleven
7. G.Perry
8. Palmer
9. Jenkins
T. Sutton

SmedIndy · 08-07-2002, 11:34 AM

I didn't mean to diminish Sutton, but I don't know if he would have had the HOF support if he played on losing teams like Niekro.

VNV Nation · 08-07-2002, 11:40 AM

What is it that you like about Niekro that makes him better than Perry or Gibson?

Fuzzy Bear · 08-07-2002, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredTiger
This is part of the reason that I love this forum. How many other sites would a person be able to list Niekro as better than Ryan and not have himself shouted off the site?

Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!
Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!
Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!
Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!
Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!
Niekro WAS better than Nolan, the Overrated!

I really don't have strong opinions on this subject.

SmedIndy · 08-07-2002, 11:13 PM

Fuzz - I don't think Ryan is overrated in this room. Go convert the unwashed masses out there....but the chior is in here ready to sing.

08-06-2002, 11:56 PM	#1
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Phil Niekro How good was Phil Niekro ? While the W-L record was not terribly impressive (318-274 .537), Niekro played for bad teams during most of his career. Not including his one game farewell in 1987, Niekro pitched 20 seasons for the Braves (1964-1983) going 268-230. During that 20 year span the Braves were 85 games below .500 including Niekro's contributions or 123 games below .500 if the Niekro's contributions are subtracted. This is a bit misleading in that the Braves bounced Niekro up and down for the first three years of his career (1964-1966) not trusting knuckleball pitchers any more than any other team does. During this period the Braves went 88-74, 86-76 and 85-77, a total of 32 games over .500. During this three year stretch Phil went 6-6. This period was the transition and decline period for the remnants of the Milwaukee Braves powerhouse of the late 50s and early 60s. Knucksie came up to stay in 1967 being used 20 times as a starter, 26 times as a reliever and going 11-9 while leading the NL in ERA. From 1967 forward Niekro went 262-224 while the Braves were 117 games below .500 (or 155 games below .500 if you subtract Knucksie's decisions). Bill James once commented that Niekro seemed to be able to go 16-13 no matter how bad his team was. For a long time, this did seem to be true (although he never actually had a season in which he went 16-13). YEAR BRAVES PHIL COMMENTS 1967 77-85 11-09 1.87 ERA led NL 1968 81-81 14-12 2.59 ERA - NL = 2.98 1969 93-69 23-13 2.56 ERA - NL = 3.60 1970 76-86 12-18 4.27 ERA - NL = 4.30 1971 82-80 15-14 1972 70-84 16-12 1973 76-85 13-10 1974 88-74 20-13 2.38 ERA / 302 IP 1975 67-94 15-15 1976 70-92 17-11 1977 61-101 16-20 330 IP 1978 69-93 19-18 334 IP 1979 66-94 21-20 342 IP 1980 81-80 15-18 1981 50-56 07-07 1982 89-73 17-04 1983 88-74 11-10 I think it is clear that Niekro was a consistantly good pitcher for a a pretty poor team over the bulk of his Atlanta years. During this 17 year stretch the Braves were under .500 ten times, essentially a .500 team three times, and were really decent on only four occasions. Of the post 1960 pitchers who have already retired, it seems to me that only Tom Seaver and Steve Carlton (maybe) were truly greater pitchers than Niekro, yet Niekro had to wait until 1997 to be enshrined in Cooperstown __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears Last edited by pwdennis : 08-06-2002 at 11:58 PM.

08-07-2002, 12:23 AM	#3
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I think you can safely list Bob Gibson (3-5 in 1959) as a post 1960 pitcher __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears Last edited by pwdennis : 08-07-2002 at 12:35 AM.

08-07-2002, 11:07 AM	#11
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I think both Sutton & Niekro were terribly mistreated by HOF voters My list would be : 1. Seaver 2. Carlton 3. Niekro 4. Marichal 5. Gibson 6. Blyleven 7. G.Perry 8. Palmer 9. Jenkins T. Sutton __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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08-07-2002, 12:13 AM	#2
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I'm not sure who you mean by post-60s pitchers who have already retired, but not counting the guys who came up in the '50s, I would rank 'em: 1. Seaver 2. Carlton 3. Marichal 4. Perry 5. Palmer 6. Niekro 7. Jenkins 8. Ryan 9. Kaat (pitched 5 innings in '50s, so sue me) 10. Sutton

08-07-2002, 12:27 AM	#4
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	OK, then Gibson is No. 2.

08-07-2002, 09:20 AM	#5
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Phil Niekro was a terrific pitcher, and an even better man than a pitcher. He is from a small town in Ohio, not far from the Wheeling, WV area where I used to live. His mother still lives there. His visits back home were always regarded as special. 300 wins is pretty spectacular no matter who you are talking about, and Niekro battled the prejudice against pitchers who throw "funny." He was only great for a few scattered years, but he was always durable and consistent.

08-07-2002, 09:26 AM	#6
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	This is part of the reason that I love this forum. How many other sites would a person be able to list Niekro as better than Ryan and not have himself shouted off the site? 1. Seaver 2. Carlton 3. Gibson 4. Marichal 5. Palmer 6. Perry 7. Niekro 8. Ryan 9. Jenkins 10. Kaat

08-07-2002, 09:56 AM	#8
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	One wonders why knuckleballers aren't more prevalent. Probably a macho macho thing. Niekro and Sutton are similar in that they were good pitchers for a very long time. If Niekro pitched for the Dodgers, how long would he have had to wait? If Sutton was stuck on the Braves, would he be as remembered as Ron Reed is today? WT - Way to give Fergie some love.

08-07-2002, 11:03 AM	#10
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	I'd take any of these guys. Sutton too. I'll rank them: 1) Seaver, 2.) Gibson, 3.) Carlton, 4.) Marichal, 5.) Palmer, 6.) Perry, 7.) Jenkins, 8.) Ryan, 9.) Niekro, 10.) Sutton, 11.) Kaat, and specify that I think each of them are Hall of Famers.

08-07-2002, 11:34 AM	#12
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	I didn't mean to diminish Sutton, but I don't know if he would have had the HOF support if he played on losing teams like Niekro.

08-07-2002, 11:40 AM	#13
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	What is it that you like about Niekro that makes him better than Perry or Gibson?

08-07-2002, 11:13 PM	#15
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Fuzz - I don't think Ryan is overrated in this room. Go convert the unwashed masses out there....but the chior is in here ready to sing.

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