The Modern Closer and Creeping LaRussa-ism

Duque · 08-02-2001, 08:03 PM

I just thought of something when I read this line:

Christiansen, StL: 30 Games, 19.1 Innings Pitched

Have bullpen roles become too strictly defined? A team's best reliever is more than likely the closer - but nowadays closers only come on in the 9th inning, when a team is ahead by 3 runs or less. Is this an effect of the save rule? I've heard this bullpen specialization called "Creeping LaRussa-ism," for obvious reasons. Hypothetically, if there's a make-or-break situation in the 7th inning of a close game, why not bring your best reliever/closer out then? Or you could look at it this way - would you rather have Mike Morgan face Jeff Bagwell with the bases loaded and 1 out in the 7th inning, or would you go with Robb Nen?

NetShrine · 08-02-2001, 08:28 PM

Duque - from 1991 to 2000, yes, TEN straight years, Jesse Orosco had less IP than Appearances, every season.

That's why I can't get excited over him having the "Games Pitched" record.

Back to your point, actually, in 1996, the Yankees had their best RP coming in during the 7th and 8th innings - when Rivera would lead into Wetteland.

I think the problem is that - and, I know nny26wc will tell me there's no stat to back up this claim (because I think we had a similar thread once on this topic - and, I will look for it - anyway, I think that it's the mental issue involved in getting the last 3 outs - where MGRs think they need their best RP.

NetShrine · 08-02-2001, 08:32 PM

Here's the other thread - scares me that I remember this stuff!

I gotta get a life!

Concern In Yankee Land

Duque · 08-03-2001, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NetShrine
Here's the other thread - scares me that I remember this stuff! I gotta get a life!

You need to get a life? I'm the one puzzling over Jason Christiansen's stats

Back to the topic, pitching is more mental than the other aspects of the game, so maybe it does take someone with ice water in their veins to close games. I suppose that's why Rivera has been so successful, while Karsay seems like a blown save waiting to happen.

NetShrine · 08-03-2001, 08:13 AM

It's the classic "if this breaks, there's still time to fix it" vs. "do or die" mind game - - you gotta be cool, or not care, to be able to handle the latter, IMHO.

satchel · 08-03-2001, 09:56 AM

To my mind the best closers are the ones who can come in and get you 5,6 outs - not necessarily every time out but frequently enough. Rivera is one of these guys; Lowe was even more so until his struggles this year. However, most closers aren't used this way, as has been observed.

There's definitely a psychological element to having the best guy come in to pitch lights out for the final three outs. Whether this person deserves to be paid almost as much as your top starters is a highly arguable point. Also whether bad teams really need to make getting one of these guys a top priority (see: Royals trading Damon for Roberto Hernandez?!) is a highly arguable point.

I think the advent of the specialist role - the colorfully described creeping LaRussa-ism - can be explained by the desire to preserve the closer for a fresh, bases-empty ninth inning. With runners on late in a close game, a manager with decent specialists can play the matchup game and save the closer for later. And a guy who knows he's only in for a batter or two can, much like a closer, rear back and throw will all he has; perhaps some pitchers work better under these conditions, when they don't have to worry about conserving their stuff.

NetShrine · 08-03-2001, 10:26 AM

Many failed SP have been able to convert to RPing - as there, they can just let it fly for 15-30 pitches per appearance.

Jay Witasick on the Yanks is like this to me. But, there have been many before him.

b-ball-lunachik · 12-07-2002, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duque
I just thought of something when I read this line:

Christiansen, StL: 30 Games, 19.1 Innings Pitched

Have bullpen roles become too strictly defined? A team's best reliever is more than likely the closer - but nowadays closers only come on in the 9th inning, when a team is ahead by 3 runs or less. Is this an effect of the save rule? I've heard this bullpen specialization called "Creeping LaRussa-ism," for obvious reasons. Hypothetically, if there's a make-or-break situation in the 7th inning of a close game, why not bring your best reliever/closer out then? Or you could look at it this way - would you rather have Mike Morgan face Jeff Bagwell with the bases loaded and 1 out in the 7th inning, or would you go with Robb Nen?

Andy -- I did a search for bullpen roles because I was sure this must have been discussed somewhere on this board!

I do think these roles are becoming too strictly defined...not just the closer but how about these "lefty specialists"? this Stanton thing is the most recent case that comes to mind...So much is being made about his inability to get lefties out by some Yankee fans -- but that's not even how he's mostly used...Stanton has been a great reliever for the Yanks and can get righties out as well as, if not better than lefties...can't we just evaluate his entire ERA instead of breaking down this specialist thing? Torre is smart enough to use him the right way...

Choate was supposed to be that guy to get the one lefty out most recently and the guy couldn't find homeplate if his life depended on it...

which makes me wonder if you really need a lefty specialist and a righty one leading up to this closer role...and this closer role has just become too much of a quest to get someone saves...how about just getting the best arms in the pen you can that can get people out and using them with the right matchups instead of all this "role business"...

Max Power · 12-07-2002, 06:04 PM

Tony LaRussa started this in 1992 and 1993 with Vince Horsman and Rick Honeycutt.

Now that it's been here 10 years - - it will probaby never go away.

Fits with my prediction that the CG will be come, fully, by 2030.

LeGrandOrange · 12-07-2002, 10:21 PM

Butch Hobson beat LaRussa to the punch though, he did it with Fossas in 1991, although LaRussa had been doing it with Dave Von Ohlen in his first Oakland year. Even LaRussa wasn't as extreme as Hobson was with Tony Fossas in 1992...those numbers make me sick...60 apperances, 29 2/3 innings? Son of a...

Max Power · 12-07-2002, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeGrandOrange
Butch Hobson beat LaRussa to the punch though, he did it with Fossas in 1991

Do you mean 1992? Same year as Honey and Horse.........

LeGrandOrange · 12-07-2002, 10:40 PM

He had to have started it late in 1991...or so the Germans would have me believe...

sweaver · 12-08-2002, 08:57 AM

To answer the original question, yes, this influx of relief specialists is a pox on the game.....and it led to problems such as Dusty Baker not having anyone who could hit to be the DH in the World Series. These extra pitchers on the roster come at the expense of extra bench players, you know, like guys who can actually hit.

KCBOOMER · 12-09-2002, 10:06 AM

I think the use of relief pitchers gives managers a feeling of empowerment and if you are a manager who thinks your brilliance is more important to winning than your players performance you could get sucked into this whirlpool very easily. And, of course, once the brilliant managers start something the lesser lights have to follow to avoid be cursed on the local sports talk show or, god forbid, SportsCenter.

LeGrandOrange · 12-10-2002, 01:06 AM

Baker wouldn't have had anyone to DH to begin with...although last I heard Damon Minor was a raker, unlike his brother.

One of the things I find most disturbing about the trend is that they groom so many pitchers from a young baseball age to be like this, and so many of the youngin's get hurt in like their second year of doing it. Kelly Wunsch was a rookie of the year candidate after a year as a one-man specialist, injured himself the second year...he has recovered. Kevin Walker was a surprise from the bullpen in the same year, injured the second year, recovery is questionable. Sean Runyan had 88 appearances, a major league leading total, in his first year as a one-man specialist, injured himself the second year, has not recovered. And many more examples, those are the three I know best.

Those seem like coincedence, because a right-hander can do this effortlessly, the two best super-relievers IMO, Dotel and Kim, can throw often and for relatively long times. But something has to be read into those injuries to be done.

08-02-2001, 08:03 PM	#1
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	The Modern Closer and Creeping LaRussa-ism I just thought of something when I read this line: Christiansen, StL: 30 Games, 19.1 Innings Pitched Have bullpen roles become too strictly defined? A team's best reliever is more than likely the closer - but nowadays closers only come on in the 9th inning, when a team is ahead by 3 runs or less. Is this an effect of the save rule? I've heard this bullpen specialization called "Creeping LaRussa-ism," for obvious reasons. Hypothetically, if there's a make-or-break situation in the 7th inning of a close game, why not bring your best reliever/closer out then? Or you could look at it this way - would you rather have Mike Morgan face Jeff Bagwell with the bases loaded and 1 out in the 7th inning, or would you go with Robb Nen?

12-07-2002, 06:04 PM	#9
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	Tony LaRussa started this in 1992 and 1993 with Vince Horsman and Rick Honeycutt. Now that it's been here 10 years - - it will probaby never go away. Fits with my prediction that the CG will be come, fully, by 2030. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

12-09-2002, 10:06 AM	#14
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	I think the use of relief pitchers gives managers a feeling of empowerment and if you are a manager who thinks your brilliance is more important to winning than your players performance you could get sucked into this whirlpool very easily. And, of course, once the brilliant managers start something the lesser lights have to follow to avoid be cursed on the local sports talk show or, god forbid, SportsCenter. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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08-02-2001, 08:28 PM	#2
NetShrine Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 4,617	Duque - from 1991 to 2000, yes, TEN straight years, Jesse Orosco had less IP than Appearances, every season. That's why I can't get excited over him having the "Games Pitched" record. Back to your point, actually, in 1996, the Yankees had their best RP coming in during the 7th and 8th innings - when Rivera would lead into Wetteland. I think the problem is that - and, I know nny26wc will tell me there's no stat to back up this claim (because I think we had a similar thread once on this topic - and, I will look for it - anyway, I think that it's the mental issue involved in getting the last 3 outs - where MGRs think they need their best RP.

08-02-2001, 08:32 PM	#3
NetShrine Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 4,617	Here's the other thread - scares me that I remember this stuff! I gotta get a life! Concern In Yankee Land

08-03-2001, 08:13 AM	#5
NetShrine Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 4,617	It's the classic "if this breaks, there's still time to fix it" vs. "do or die" mind game - - you gotta be cool, or not care, to be able to handle the latter, IMHO.

08-03-2001, 09:56 AM	#6
satchel NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,601	To my mind the best closers are the ones who can come in and get you 5,6 outs - not necessarily every time out but frequently enough. Rivera is one of these guys; Lowe was even more so until his struggles this year. However, most closers aren't used this way, as has been observed. There's definitely a psychological element to having the best guy come in to pitch lights out for the final three outs. Whether this person deserves to be paid almost as much as your top starters is a highly arguable point. Also whether bad teams really need to make getting one of these guys a top priority (see: Royals trading Damon for Roberto Hernandez?!) is a highly arguable point. I think the advent of the specialist role - the colorfully described creeping LaRussa-ism - can be explained by the desire to preserve the closer for a fresh, bases-empty ninth inning. With runners on late in a close game, a manager with decent specialists can play the matchup game and save the closer for later. And a guy who knows he's only in for a batter or two can, much like a closer, rear back and throw will all he has; perhaps some pitchers work better under these conditions, when they don't have to worry about conserving their stuff.

08-03-2001, 10:26 AM	#7
NetShrine Administrator Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 4,617	Many failed SP have been able to convert to RPing - as there, they can just let it fly for 15-30 pitches per appearance. Jay Witasick on the Yanks is like this to me. But, there have been many before him.

12-07-2002, 10:21 PM	#10
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	Butch Hobson beat LaRussa to the punch though, he did it with Fossas in 1991, although LaRussa had been doing it with Dave Von Ohlen in his first Oakland year. Even LaRussa wasn't as extreme as Hobson was with Tony Fossas in 1992...those numbers make me sick...60 apperances, 29 2/3 innings? Son of a...

12-07-2002, 10:40 PM	#12
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	He had to have started it late in 1991...or so the Germans would have me believe...

12-08-2002, 08:57 AM	#13
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	To answer the original question, yes, this influx of relief specialists is a pox on the game.....and it led to problems such as Dusty Baker not having anyone who could hit to be the DH in the World Series. These extra pitchers on the roster come at the expense of extra bench players, you know, like guys who can actually hit.

12-10-2002, 01:06 AM	#15
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	Baker wouldn't have had anyone to DH to begin with...although last I heard Damon Minor was a raker, unlike his brother. One of the things I find most disturbing about the trend is that they groom so many pitchers from a young baseball age to be like this, and so many of the youngin's get hurt in like their second year of doing it. Kelly Wunsch was a rookie of the year candidate after a year as a one-man specialist, injured himself the second year...he has recovered. Kevin Walker was a surprise from the bullpen in the same year, injured the second year, recovery is questionable. Sean Runyan had 88 appearances, a major league leading total, in his first year as a one-man specialist, injured himself the second year, has not recovered. And many more examples, those are the three I know best. Those seem like coincedence, because a right-hander can do this effortlessly, the two best super-relievers IMO, Dotel and Kim, can throw often and for relatively long times. But something has to be read into those injuries to be done.

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