Aparicio, Concepcion, Campaneris, Bowa, and the Hall of Fame

[Fuzzy Bear]

Luis Aparicio is in the HOF.

Larry Bowa is not, and probably never will be.

Dave Concepcion is not, and may be someday, but his candidacy is hurt by the flurry of offensive shortstops that have come to the fore in his latter playing days, and after he retired.

Bert Campaneris has been talked about as a HOFer, but has no bandwagon. He's an inch closer to Cooperstown than Bowa is, which is to say he played on more World Champions than Bowa, and that won't be forgotten.

So why is Luis Aparicio in the HOF and the others out? Was Luis Aparicio REALLY that much better than the other three who are NOT in the HOF, and are probably NOT HOF caliber?

Of course, I am willing to give Aparicio an allowance (along with Campy) for his years played in the pitcher's era (1963-68). Therefore, his batting stats (along with Campy's) deserve SOME special consideration.

Anyhow, lets look at some stats:

Offense:

BA: Concepcion .267, Aparicio .262, Bowa .260, Campy .259
OBP: Concepcion .322, Aparicio .311, Campy .311, Bowa .300
SLG: Concepcion .353, Aparicio .343, Campy .342, Bowa .320
SB per 162g: Campy 42, Aparicio 32, Bowa 23, Concepcion 21

Defense:

FA: Bowa .980, Aparicio .972, Concepcion .972, Campy .963
RnF: Aparicio 4.87, Bowa 4.57, Concepcion 4.51, Campy 4.43

Black Ink: (Avg. HOFer 27)

Aparicio 19, Campy 18, Bowa 2, Concepcion 0

Gray Ink: (Avg. HOFer 144)

Aparicio 84, Campy 63, Bowa 38, Concepcion 25

HOF Standards: (Avg. HOFer 50)

Aparicio 36.0, Concepcion 29.1, Campy 27.3, Bowa 20.9

HOF Monitor (Likely HOFer 100+, gray area 70-130)

Aparicio 144, Concepcion 107, Campy 76, Bowa 70

So why is Aparicio this Few-questions-asked HOFer, while these other guys have their nose against Cooperstown's window pane?

I feel confident in saying that Aparicio was better than Campy and Bowa (who is the least of the group). Why does he seem to rank so far ahead of Concepcion, though?

Stolen bases and Gold Gloves, that's why. That's what pushed Aparicio up in HOF standards and HOF monitor.

However Bowa, who only won two (2) Gold Gloves had the highest FA , with Aparicio and Concepcion tied for 2nd. Aparicio had a higher range factor, but was that a result of HIS times, when the strike zone was larger, there were more ground balls, and he played in the worst hitters park in the league; a park where you were at an advantage to hit the ball on the ground?

Concepcion's teams won more often. Campy's teams won more often. Aparicio did play on two World Champions, but he was no better than the 3rd or 4th best player on either of those teams.
Concepcion was 5th, but 5th behind four HOFers on much greater teams.

Comparable players? Ozzie Smith (1st, 904) Pee Wee Reese (7th, 805), and Red Shoendienst (8th, 798) are Aparicio's HOF comps. Bobby Wallace (1st, 883), Reese (4th, 847), Aparicio (5th, 844), and Ozzie Smith (10th, 831) are Concepcions HOF comps.
Aparicio (4th, 861) and Ozzie (8th, 850) are Campy's HOF comps.
Bowa has no HOF comps.

Was Aparicio REALLY that special, as to merit HOF induction, when most players who did what he did are NOT in the HOF? OK, shortstop is a defensive position; what he REALLY better than Concepcion or Bowa? Was his career REALLY more valuble than the others to the point of being a HOFer?

I think not. I think Aparicio is no better than Phil Rizzuto, a marginal HOFer, and I don't think he is significantly better than Concepcion. The O's traded Aparicio for a BETTER leadoff man (Don Buford) in 1968, and the O's proceeded to win three pennants after finishing 2nd, while the Sox went into the tank.
I have trouble saying Aparicio is better than Omar Vizquel. Is Vizquel a HOFer? We had a thread on this once. Comparing Aparicio to Vizquel, does Vizquel's HOF case really look as prepostorous as it sounds?

Aparicio is in the HOF. I'm not bent out of shape about it. Concepcion isn't, and I'm OK with that, too. I'm not convinced that Aparicio is HOF quality, and I'm not TOTALLY convinced that the better player is in the HOF.

[pwdennis]

Perceptions change over the course of time. When I was watching Aparicio and Mazeroski play I was not envisioning either of them as HOF players since my perception at the time was that you could find a dozen good MLB level defensive players for each MLB quality hitter; therefore, the HOF should be reserved for the great hitters and pitchers. By the time Ozzie Smith came along I had adjusted my thinking as to the relative worth of defense vs offense and have conceded that superlative defense can compensate for mediocre offense - up to a point . Therefore "yes" to Ozzie Smith, Luis Aparicio, Bill Mazeroski but "no" to Mark Belanger.

Aparicio was misused as a leadoff hitter but he was a superlative fielder - better than Bowa, Concepcion or a host of other pretenders. I'm not going to revisit the argument as to whether Aparicio was better or worse than Smith or Belanger or whomever, but he was the best defensive shortstop of his time and one of the best ever.

You can make a decent case for Concepcion as being worthy of consideration but none of the players you are comparing in this thread were any great shakes as offensive players (nor was Oz for that matter) - taking into account when he played, Aparicio was the probably the best of the bunch. Defensively none of the others are close to him. Yes, the Orioles traded Aparicio but he was an older player at the time and the O's had the incredible fortunate to have another superlative defensive shortstop (Belanger) waiting in the wings. Concepcion played on a number of winners but I think the Big Red Machine would have done as well with Belanger at SS (during Belanger's better offensive seasons.

[JamesI]

I wouldn't put any on this list in, other than Aparicio. He was the best fielder in the group.

[sweaver]

Bowa is a definite no, IMO. The other three are on-the-fence types, and it all depends on how much weight you give to defense. Aparicio is probably a notch ahead in this area, and deserves his HOF slot. Remember, he was in a somewhat lower offensive era than Concepcion, also.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by pwdennis
but I think the Big Red Machine would have done as well with Belanger at SS (during Belanger's better offensive seasons.

I know this is off topic, but as an Orioles fan I had to ask.
Belanger had better offensive seasons?

I believe Aparicio may or may not be a Hall of Famer. If he is, however, he certainly rates in the bottom half (as does Ozzie Smith).

In my mind the case for Ozzie came down to this: "He was the greatest defensive shortstop in history." I think there can be a place in Cooperstown for the person that meets that description.

At one time, that descriptor, however, was used to underline Aparicio's credentials for the Hall.

Another aspect of Aparicio's career that is an asset Campaneris, Bowa, Concepcion, etc. do not have is that Aparicio's stolen base totals occurred in an era of historically few stolen bases. The guy led the league nine consecutive years. That's pretty incredible. He didn't have to have 900 career SB to have an impressive baserunning resume.

This is like the 19th century players and early deadball league leaders in home runs. Guys who led their league in home runs with 5-15 home runs per year. Sure, those guys aren't exactly Babe Ruth, but if one of them had led the league nine times running - in any era - that's someone who deserves some serious consideration.

Aparicio was a force on the basepaths when the league played station-to-station offense and nobody else swiped 'em much. As is often pointed out about Ruth, Aparicio's season totals in one particular stat were sometimes better than the season totals of whole teams in the league! (Of course, a steal isn't as "sexy" as a home run, I suppose.)

Bottom line is - like Fuzzy Bear said - Aparicio is in. I don't think he should be a standard for future selections. That said, it's difficult to make a case for Dave Concepcion under this premise.

That doesn't take anything away from Dave Concepcion. It's just that he doesn't belong in the Hall.

Until the current crop of SS's retire, I believe Alan Trammell and Cal Ripken (and Barry Larkin) are the only guys who truly belong among the more contemporary players.

[sweaver]

Originally posted by JamesI
I know this is off topic, but as an Orioles fan I had to ask.
Belanger had better offensive seasons?

Sure, and the Orioles generally won when Belanger hit .270, and didn't when he hit .210. Of course, he was so weak overall with the stick that he is not a Hall candidate, regardless of his glove work.

[pwdennis]

Interesting article by Tom Timmermann of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch - I don't know what day it was printed in St. Louis but it was carried in today's Orlando Sentinel . The article was labelled "Few More Magical Than Wizard Of Oz" but the article really concerned the changing of the standards applied to shortstops. One of the persons quoted in the article is Jerome Holtzman (former Chicago Sportswriter and contributor to TSN) :

**********************

Jerome Holtzman, a longtime baseball writer who now serves as Major League Baseball's historian, feel the key to ranking shortstops is with an emphasis on defense and he supports a different candidate:Luis Aparicio

"Aparicio was better than Ozzie Smith" Holtzman said. "He was an offensive player who stole a lot of bases. He could have stolen 100 bases but in those days, you didn't steal"

**********************

True, Holtzman may have a bias toward Aparicio dating from Luis' days with the Chisox, but I always found Holtzman to be a pretty objective writer. A quote from Leonard Koppett makes the case defensively for Smith "He was clearly the best defensively of that era and the equal of any other time"

Fair enough - I can live with that

[SmedIndy]

Holtzman's not using data to back up his conclusions, and writers do tend to favor those they are most familiar with.

Aparacio is a marginal HOF player. Bowa was a joke even when he played. (His competition at SS was mighty weak around the league). Campy and Concepcion are nice players who fit into the Evans / Parker / Murphy / Lynn / Dawson wing of good guys.

[pwdennis]

I agree with you Smed - I think Aparicio is a marginal HOFer - but so is Smith. The other ones in this thread are more marginal still.


The solid HOF types are Wagner, Yount, Ripkin, Trammel, Larkin, Banks (??) and perhaps someday A-Rod, Jeter & Garciaparra

[VNV Nation]

Aparicio's not a great Hall of Famer, but I think he's clearly over the line of "guys I'm OK with being in the Hall." He was a fairly weak hitter but his steals and speed make him an average offensive performer, above average for his position, and he's a great defensive player. Actually, I don't think he's even close to the bottom of the worst HOF shortstops -- I'd take him over Wallace, Bancroft, Maranville, Jackson.

Concepcion has a decent case for the Hall of Fame, but I don't think he's quite there...he's just a guy who was a good player, like Tony Fernandez or Vern Stephens, who didnt' quite have enough really good seasons. He was a terrific defensive player although probably not quite up to par with Aparicio, who has a good argument to be the greatest defensive shortstop before Ozzie.

Campaneris was probably a better offensive threat than either Aparicio or Concepcion, but was not on the same level as a defensive player. Shortstops come to the plate, what, 650 times a year? So they're involved in about 11 or 10 percent of the of a team's offensive "plays," but they're involved in about 20 percent of the team's defensive players, so I think the spread in defensive value is generally bigger than the offense...unless you're A-Rod or something.

Bowa was just not an offensive threat at all except for a handful of seasons and his defense again isn't up to Aparicio standards. He was a nice solid player who helped his teams but he wasn't even an All-Star type.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Aparicio's not a great Hall of Famer, but I think he's clearly over the line of "guys I'm OK with being in the Hall."

I guess I started this thread because I'm really NOT OK with Aparicio in the HOF. Especially while Santo and Carter are out.

I hope I did not convey the belief that Bowa and Campy are HOF candidates. IMO, they have no case.

However, I would like to ask everyone if Aparicio is SO FAR ahead of Concepcion to the point where people are OK with him being in, weaknesses and all, but not OK with Dave? Or is Dave close enough to Looie to where if he were inducted, you'd be OK with that, as well?

[pwdennis]

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear


I guess I started this thread because I'm really NOT OK with Aparicio in the HOF. Especially while Santo and Carter are out.

I hope I did not convey the belief that Bowa and Campy are HOF candidates. IMO, they have no case.

I presume that if you are not okay with Aparicio being HOF, that you also object to Ozzie Smith being there.

I happen to agree with you that Santo & Carter (and IMHO Simmons & Rice) not being in Cooperstown is an outrage but I am not sure that ridding the place of Oz & Luis does anything to correct that problem.

If you enjoy watching excellent defensive play, both were a great pleasure to watch - surely that should count for something when the roll is called up yonder

[Golden Bear]

We've mentioned Aparicio's basestealing, but not Campy's.

Campy is 14th all time, 11th post-1901, with 649 SB. His success rate was 76.5%, well over break-even.

The only SS with comparably high SB totals are Honus with 722, George Davis with 616 (straddling the century mark), Maury Wills with 586, and Ozzie with 580. Aparicio is further back the list at 506, behind Dahlen, Monte Ward, and Herman Long.

Obviously, Aparicio's totals (78.8% success) are deflated a little because his career began in 1956, but Campy is at least his equal and probably better.

Fielding-wise, Campy was a better-than-average SS, but he wasn't at the level of the others discussed.

A borderline guy, Campy is, but I thought I'd chime in because he hadn't gotten his due for his work on the basepaths, which is the best part of his argument.

I'd rank him behind Concepcion, who should be in (I've made his case before), and ahead of Bowa, who probably doesn't quite make it.

Bowa's case is based on the fielding percentage records he held before Cal broke them. It's a thin case; if he still had the record, I might support him, but the record didn't stand particularly long. (This seems similar to the case for Bob Boone based on his holding the record for games caught, which Fisk broke within 10 years of Boone's setting it.)

Campy, I'm not sure...he's not the best SS not inducted by a long shot (Davey, Trammell, Vern Stephens, Bill Dahlen, maybe Tony Fernandez, maybe Dick Bartell, maybe Marty Marion). He's not even the best basestealing SS (I'd have to give that to Wills).

But he's better than a handful of SS who are in the HOF (Bobby Wallace, Joe Tinker, Travis Jackson, maybe Hughie Jennings, maybe Dave Bancroft, maybe Phil Rizzuto. Then again, several of these guys are seen as mistakes.

His counting stats, other than baserunning, are not compelling...he's got 2000+ hits, but other than that there's not much to hang your hat on. Good at sacrificing. His percentage stats -- the less said, the better.

6 time All-Star. Postseason play OK; not exceptional, not poor -- one great performance in 1973 postseason; probably A's offensive MVP overall. I think he may have been the second best all-around position player on his A's dynasty, behind Reggie. (Others would argue Rudi, Bando, or maybe Tenace; Bando's got the best argument, I think.)

He's one of the dozen-odd players who played every position in a game, but that's as much a stunt as an achievement. He defected from Castro's Cuba; that brave choice and the hardship involved in it is a big point in his favor for me. He's living; he turned 60 last March 9. I know little about his post-baseball life; I think he's coaching somewhere, but I'm not positive.

I'd have to say not yet on Campy. He's not undeserving, but there's too many guys ahead of him on line, and no good excuse to sneak him in a side door. If he made it, though, I would be OK with it, and happy for him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by pwdennis


I presume that if you are not okay with Aparicio being HOF, that you also object to Ozzie Smith being there.

Ozzie was light years ahead of Looie in offense. He walked so much more that he was, for a time, the best OFFENSIVE shortstop in the NL.

I'm OK with Ozzie in the HOF. I'm NOT OK with the writers picking Ozzie and not Gary Carter. Gary Carter is my idea of a 1st ballot guy; Ozzie is not. I do realize that the HOF is an in/out thing, but 1st ballot selection is a statement of assessment on your ability while active by your contemporaries.