Best-fielding 2B - Page 2

pwdennis · 07-26-2002, 01:57 AM

As a defensive player Maz was that good - maybe a hair less range than some but incredibly sure-handed and absolutely the best pivot man that ever was. Probably the best defensive player ever at any position.

As an offensive player he was killed by his ballpark - playing in Chicago, St Louis (Old Busch Stadium), or Crosley Field , he would have been regarded as a second baseman with decent power (nearly 2/3 of his homeruns were hit on the road).

I met Mazeroski a few years ago - one heck of a nice man.

padresfan19 · 07-26-2002, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweaver

(1) Mazeroski (2) Frank White (3) Manny Trillo (4) Jose Oquendo (5) Mark Lemke (6) Chico Lind (7) Joe Morgan (8) Roberto Alomar.

Dick Green belongs on there somewhere. He almost won a World Series MVP without getting a hit, just with the glove.

I feel the same way about Willie Mays as I do about Mazeroski. I'm too young to have seen either of them play, so there is no way I can appreciate how good they were. At least with Mays there are the offensive numbers, but the only play I ever saw him make on defense was the one in the '54 World Series. With Mazeroski, all I ever see is the homerun in the '60 Series. I have never seen a single play he made on defense.

But how in the world can Alomar only be #8 on your list? Do you really think that Mark Lemke was a better fielder than Alomar? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Also, I pride myself on my knowledge of baseball history, but at the risk of sounding totally ignorant, who the hell was Dick Green? For the life of me, I have no idea who that guy is.

SmedIndy · 07-26-2002, 10:17 AM

Son -

Dick Green was a key member of the Swingin' A's. He's forgotten because he quit the game when he was fed up with Finley and his tactics and didn't cash in on free agency. He didn't have much of a stick, but his steady play at the keystone sack along with Bert Campineris at short helped build the A's into a powerhouse much like the present day Yankees.

Alomar is a fine fielder, but I admit Lemke was better. That's the only reason he stayed in the game that long. And Hubbard was better than Lemke.

Quote:

Originally posted by padresfan19

I feel the same way about Willie Mays as I do about Mazeroski. I'm too young to have seen either of them play, so there is no way I can appreciate how good they were. At least with Mays there are the offensive numbers, but the only play I ever saw him make on defense was the one in the '54 World Series. With Mazeroski, all I ever see is the homerun in the '60 Series. I have never seen a single play he made on defense.

But how in the world can Alomar only be #8 on your list? Do you really think that Mark Lemke was a better fielder than Alomar? I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Also, I pride myself on my knowledge of baseball history, but at the risk of sounding totally ignorant, who the hell was Dick Green? For the life of me, I have no idea who that guy is.

SmedIndy · 07-26-2002, 10:18 AM

Did we mention Tommy Herr. He was the definition of steady. Not flashy, but made the plays and kept up with Ozzie.

sweaver · 07-26-2002, 10:19 AM

You have to realize, pf, that your ignorance of Dick Green completely nullifies the criticism of Alomar's position on my list.

Green was with the A's on the World Championship teams of the 1970s. Couldn't hit a lick, but the man was magic with a glove on his hand.

Yes, Lemke was tremendous. I might move Alomar ahead of Morgan, but not Lemke, a tremendous defender and underrated member of the Braves' championship teams of the early 1990s. I prefer quietly competent fielders to flashy types, like Alomar, Ordonez, or Vizquel, who look awfully good just not QUITE making that play, which another guy with better real range would have made.

sweaver · 07-26-2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Alomar is a fine fielder, but I admit Lemke was better. That's the only reason he stayed in the game that long. And Hubbard was better than Lemke.

You're right, Smed. Should have Hubbard on there too.

By the time this is done, I will have one long list.

SmedIndy · 07-26-2002, 10:23 AM

http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greendi01.shtml

BTW - Green wasn't THAT bad with the stick, really, considering the era. And he had some power, too, for a 2B at that time.

moose · 07-26-2002, 10:24 AM

[bob boone] bret boone is the greatest defensive 2B of all time [/BB]

heck, i dont know. my dad says maz was the best he saw at turning the DP, and since he has no inherent bias toward the pirates, i'll believe him....

VNV Nation · 07-26-2002, 08:31 PM

I am too young to have seen Maz play but I have seen him in old footage and on ESPN Classic...everything anyone said about him turning the double play is true, that's all I can say.

I wish he were around today, where we could break down his movements with slow-mo. I have no idea how he could get that much velocity/accuracy on the throw, with his momentum going away from first, with no leverage, so quickly. The best way to describe it is to say that it's hard to believe the shortstop could have gotten the ball to first faster on a straight throw. Never seen anything like it.

That said...I still think you don't lose anything with Frank White out there...I think he had as much range as Ozzie.

07-26-2002, 01:57 AM	#16
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	As a defensive player Maz was that good - maybe a hair less range than some but incredibly sure-handed and absolutely the best pivot man that ever was. Probably the best defensive player ever at any position. As an offensive player he was killed by his ballpark - playing in Chicago, St Louis (Old Busch Stadium), or Crosley Field , he would have been regarded as a second baseman with decent power (nearly 2/3 of his homeruns were hit on the road). I met Mazeroski a few years ago - one heck of a nice man. __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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07-26-2002, 10:18 AM	#19
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Did we mention Tommy Herr. He was the definition of steady. Not flashy, but made the plays and kept up with Ozzie.

07-26-2002, 10:19 AM	#20
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	You have to realize, pf, that your ignorance of Dick Green completely nullifies the criticism of Alomar's position on my list. Green was with the A's on the World Championship teams of the 1970s. Couldn't hit a lick, but the man was magic with a glove on his hand. Yes, Lemke was tremendous. I might move Alomar ahead of Morgan, but not Lemke, a tremendous defender and underrated member of the Braves' championship teams of the early 1990s. I prefer quietly competent fielders to flashy types, like Alomar, Ordonez, or Vizquel, who look awfully good just not QUITE making that play, which another guy with better real range would have made.

07-26-2002, 10:23 AM	#22
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greendi01.shtml BTW - Green wasn't THAT bad with the stick, really, considering the era. And he had some power, too, for a 2B at that time.

07-26-2002, 10:24 AM	#23
moose Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Socs Posts: 3,400	[bob boone] bret boone is the greatest defensive 2B of all time [/BB] heck, i dont know. my dad says maz was the best he saw at turning the DP, and since he has no inherent bias toward the pirates, i'll believe him....

07-26-2002, 08:31 PM	#24
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I am too young to have seen Maz play but I have seen him in old footage and on ESPN Classic...everything anyone said about him turning the double play is true, that's all I can say. I wish he were around today, where we could break down his movements with slow-mo. I have no idea how he could get that much velocity/accuracy on the throw, with his momentum going away from first, with no leverage, so quickly. The best way to describe it is to say that it's hard to believe the shortstop could have gotten the ball to first faster on a straight throw. Never seen anything like it. That said...I still think you don't lose anything with Frank White out there...I think he had as much range as Ozzie.

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