Shortstops, Aparicio, Smith, Trammell ...

[VNV Nation]

PW:

Look at these Cardinal pitching staffs:

1982
12th in Ks
Joaquin Andujar, Bob Forsch, Steve Mura.


1985
10th in Ks
Andujar, Tudor, Cox

1987
11th in Ks
Cox, Mathews, Forsch, Magrane, Tudor (no one won more than 11 games)

These are not great pitchers, or great pitching staffs, by any stretch of the imagination. Who's the last WS winning team to finish last in strikeouts?

Look at the defense in these years:
1982: First in FP, second in DPs
1985: First in FP, second in DPs
1987: First in FP, second in DPs

The offense?
1982: 5th in runs, last in homers, first in OBP, first in steals
1985: First in runs, 11th in homers, first in OBP, first in steals
1987: Second in runs, last in homers, first in OBP, first in steals

I would infer from this, that
A. The offense was powerless but got lots of guys on base and stole lots of bases. Ozzie was a central figure in the get-on-base-and-run-like crazy offense, with an OBP over .360 and 99 steals with an 82 SB rate.
B. The fielding was the strongest part of the team. Ozzie was obviously the best defender on the team.
C. The pitchers were the weakest part of the team, although the bullpens were very good. Basically, it was just a bunch of guys like Bob Forsch and Greg Mathews who just went out and threw strikes, confident that, with a good defense behind them, they could give up balls in play.

The best two pitchers on these teams, by far, were John Tudor and Joaquin Andujar. Fine pitchers, but hardly immortal.
Both pitched a whole lot better when they played for the Ozzie Cards than at other times in their careers: Tudor had a 2.52 ERA for St. Louis, 3.70 for other teams, Andujar 3.31 for Cards, 3.82 elsewhere. (Before you ask, it's not the park. Busch has been a slightly favorable hitters park, and in Andujar's case, his other parks were much, much better pitchers' parks -- Astrodome and Oak. Mausoleum).

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Look at these Cardinal pitching staffs:

1982
12th in Ks
Joaquin Andujar, Bob Forsch, Steve Mura.


1985
10th in Ks
Andujar, Tudor, Cox

1987
11th in Ks
Cox, Mathews, Forsch, Magrane, Tudor (no one won more than 11 games)

how did their ERAs stack up against the league? that's the point, isn't it?

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by moose

how did their ERAs stack up against the league? that's the point, isn't it?

No -- their "pitching" was actually defense.

[SmedIndy]

Ozzie was the glue holding those Cards team together as well. You couldn't count on Clark, you couldn't count on the pen. And you sure as heck couldn't count of the likes of Steve Mura.

Smith and Herr were a heck of a DP combo. A lot of 6-4-3 and 4-6-3 DPs and you win. And I can't see how a player with a .392 OBP and over 100 runs scored while playing SS wouldn't be the team MVP.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
No -- their "pitching" was actually defense.

i missed this... can you explain a bit more, s'il vous plait?

[pwdennis]

The 87 Cardinals offense without Jack Clark would have been the Indian's offense of the days when The Human Rain Delay was playing 1B - lotsa guys on base but nobody knockin' em in. The biggest single increment of the high OBP was Jack Clark, who walked 136 times. I was appalled that Clark wasn't MVP that year - most astute observers felt that he should have been (Boswell, Gammons, James...) . Ozzie's best year was 1987 but he wasn't the main bearing.

As for Tudor - the other parks he played in were Chavez Ravine, where his numbers were similar to his St Louis numbers, and Fenway, back when Fenway was really Fenway. Of course Tudor's numbers were worse there. The rest of the staff was a reliable, mostly groundball staff, that relied on the defense. Forsch had a number of decent seasons, Andujar wasn't a great pitcher over the course of his career but there were times when it looked like he might become one (lousy temperment got in the way)

[sweaver]

Clark also missed about a month that year. I would have voted for Ozzie for MVP in 1987, had I a vote. Nobody was more important to their team, and he was better than Dawson in 1987, certainly. Clark would have won if he had played 140 games.

[Sidewinder]

In Neyer's new column, he mentions 2 shortstops as being Ozzie's closest comptetion defensively: Marty Marion and Dal Maxvill. Marion's been mentioned here, but can anyone comment on Maxvill? I'm not old enough to have seen him, but my dad always talks about how good he was with the glove.

[pwdennis]

Maxvill was with St. Louis during the 1960s - was on the 64, 67 & 68 Cardinal pennant winners (was a regular in 67 & 68) . The personification of the phrase "Good Field - No Hit" - I believe he hit under .220 for his career. Maxvill was very good defensively but he was not in the class of Aparicio or Smith. He had only a couple of years as a regular - when his hitting slipped too much, he lasted for a while as a utility infielder - I think he was with the A's during at least one of their pennant winners

[SmedIndy]

He was on the A's from 1972-75, but kept seesawing between the A's and Pirates after the A's got him from the Cards.

He played more 2B with the A's.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Sidewinder
In Neyer's new column, he mentions 2 shortstops as being Ozzie's closest comptetion defensively: Marty Marion and Dal Maxvill. Marion's been mentioned here, but can anyone comment on Maxvill? I'm not old enough to have seen him, but my dad always talks about how good he was with the glove.

I would also mention here that Marty Marion was not the offensive force that Ozzie became.

Marion did, however, win an MVP once, almost entirely on his glovework. I wonder if that's ever been done before.

While I'm not super-enthusiastic about Ozzie being a 1st ballot guy while Gary Carter waits, I do think that Ozzie may have been the real NL MVP in 1987; he season was mega-impressive, the Cards won the pennant, and he was the best player on his team.
That was the year Andre Dawson won an MVP on HRs alone, while having a year that fell apart under the sabermetric microscope. Ozzie was probably the REAL MVP of 1987 in the NL, and should get credit for it.

I wonder who let the NL in win shares that year?

[SmedIndy]

Fuzz -

As a Cub fan, that was a lame MVP. Ozzie was among my short list of candidates for it.

FWIW - I think Andre won the MVP because Harry Caray said so...HOLY COW!

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Aparicio was Smith without ESPN.

No way, Boomer!

Aparicio was a mega-impatient hitter who lead off because managers of that time didn't look at OBP; they looked at "speed" and stolen bases, which Looie had.

Aparicio was a poor leadoff hitter who rarely walked. Ozzie became a very disciplined hitter to the point where, for a brief period, he was probably the best OFFENSIVE shortstop in the NL.
(I emphasize "for a brief period" for all of you Barry Larkin fans.)

[VNV Nation]

Win Shares Leaders, 1987 NL:

1. Tim Raines 34 --- Collusion victim, missed first month
2. Jack Clark 33 --- missed the last month of the season
2. Ozzie Smith 33
4. Eric Davis 30 (37 homers, 50 SB, Gold Glove)
4. Darryl Strawberry 30 (39 homers)
6. Tony Gwynn (.370 56 steals)
6. Dale Murphy (.295 44 homers)
8. Guerrero
8. Tim Wallach
10. Mike Schmidt

[VNV Nation]

Originally posted by moose

i missed this... can you explain a bit more, s'il vous plait?

Moose -- I'm sorry, I forgot that there might actually be rascals running around here who are too young to remember Whitey's Cards.

Whitey was the most aggressive great manager in the history of baseball. He simply did not believe in station-to-station ball. As illustrated in the stats, he had patient hitters, but his teams played as if every baserunner they got was their last. On defense, pretty much the same thing...he wanted pitchers who would go after hitters, every at-bat.

Several other members of the board have talked about the importance of strikeouts for pitchers...Well, Whitey's teams are an exception to the rule that you need strikeouts to win. His teams played in big parks that negated the home run,and he had guys who could catch the ball like nobody's business. The Royals had the best defensive outfield I've ever seen -- Willie Wilson, a Gold Glove caliber center fielder, in left, Amos Otis, and Al Cowens. The infield had Freddie Patek and Frank White.

His Cardinals outfield was just as fast, although not quite as good, with Willie McGee, a Gold Glover, Andy Van Slyke, Vince Coleman, and their infield defense was even better, with Herr, Oberkfell/Pendleton, Ozzie. Porter caught for both teams, and later, Tony Pena.

Because of this, he had control pitchers -- Whitey was obsessive about control pitchers -- who didn't strike out anybody, but they didn't give up a ton of hits, even in a park that increased batting averages, because he had 3-5 Gold Glovers in the field.

The 1987 team, they were heavily favored in the World Series, and had a better ERA than the star-studded Mets, who finished second in the NL East, despite what may have been the worst starting rotation of any pennant winner. They had a good pitcher who was hurt (Tudor), one guy who was too old (Forsch), another who was too young (Magrane), and none of these guys were Roger Clemens to begin with. The aces of the team were Greg Mathews, who won 28 games in his career, and Danny Cox, both of whom barely struck out 100 guys.