Shortstops, Aparicio, Smith, Trammell ...

pwdennis · 07-23-2002, 08:46 PM

Robin Yount, Cal Ripken and the generations that followed him have changed the perceptions of what a shortstop should be. With the exception of Honus Wagner and Ernie Banks, none of the pre-Ripken generation of shortstops can compete with the Garciaparra, Rodriguez and Jeters of the world. Omar Visquel, a truly terrific defensive player is hardly ever mentioned in the same breathe as the big three. Twenty-five years ago he might have been regarded as the best in the game.

Smed and I have been disagreeing on the merits of Ozzie Smith as a first ballot HOF selection. I consider him a marginal HOF candidate; Smed considers him truly worthy and the greatest defensive player at any position.

From my perspective, it's very hard to separate the case for Ozzie Smith from the case for Aparicio. They are each other's closest comps and their offensive stats are eerily similar. Defensively, Ozzie had the advantage of playing on artificial turf and on grass fields that were better maintained than some of the diamonds that Little Looie played on. Consequently, Smith's fielding percentage is a bit better. Both won many GGs (the award started after Aparicio's career had begun). If you placed them both on the same fields, I doubt you could tell them apart.

Ozzie had a bit better batting eye as far as OBP but Aparicio had more power. Both hit .262 for their career. Aparicio beats Smith in the Black Ink, Gray Ink, HOF standards and HOF monitor tests. Since Aparicio played in the AL during the 1960s, his offensive stats, taken in context, are better than those of Smith.

Smed is too young to have seen Aparicio at his peak. I did see him, many times, and he was really something. I guess the reason I was never as impressed with Ozzie Smith as many others were is that I already had seen the best in Aparicio. Defensively, Smith did age a little better than Aparicio. Still, they are two peas in a pod.

Having said that, I wouldn't trade Alan Trammell even up for either of them. You'd have to toss in something (a #3 starter or a good middle reliever) to tempt me to part with Trammell for Oz or Luis.

I never saw Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese or Phil Rizzuto play at all, and defensive wizard Roy McMillan I only saw at the end of his career. Eddie Brinkman was a fine defensive player but a very poor offensive player. Gene Alley was a very fine defensive player whose career was cut short by injuries. Davy Concepcion was very good. Mark Belanger was a poor offensive player but a very good defensive player - maybe the equal of Aparicio, Visquel and Smith (his range factors are watered down because of his light hitting - he played many partial games in his career). Larry Bowa was perhaps the most reliable shortstop of all time, virtually never messing up a routine play.

Leaving out the boppers seven (Wagner, Banks, Yount, Ripken, Jeter, Rodriguez, and Garciaparra), how would you assess the shortstops you've seen ?

VNV Nation · 07-23-2002, 09:48 PM

Larkin
Ozzie
Tony Fernandez
Trammell
Vizquel
Concepcion

I wouldn't take Fernandez's career over Trammell's, but for a few years there, he was as good as it got.

JamesI · 07-23-2002, 10:22 PM

Before I start, since this said only those we've seen, I'm leaving out some really good names like Aparicio.

Alan Trammell
Ozzie Smith
Barry Larkin
Omar Vizquel

SmedIndy · 07-23-2002, 10:29 PM

No, I didn't see Aparicio at his peak, but I didn't see Honus Wagner at his peak and I know he's the best damn shortstop ever to play the game.

Smith's defensive prowess, based not on fielding percentage at all but other considerations, in my mind are still superior to Aparicios. But that's like choosing a diamond over an emerald.

And shortstop is the one position I value defense over offense. If you can't pick it, you better not play there. And you better have range. I would have booted Bowa because he wouldn't move for anything. He was a statue.

For my eyes:

Ozzie
Larkin
Vizquel
Trammell
Concepcion

Dunston could really pick it, if his heart was in it. He's probably the most disappointing of the bunch.

The era was full of guys like Bowa, Metzger, Enzo Hernandez, Bud Harrelson, Raffy Ramirez type of players.

VNV Nation · 07-23-2002, 10:47 PM

I'm sorry, I ranked them before as overall/peak players.

Based just on defense alone, I'd rank them:

Ozzie
Ordonez
Concepcion
Fernandez
Larkin
Vizquel

I don't know, I saw Bowa play every day for six years and he seemed like he had good range to me.

sweaver · 07-23-2002, 10:59 PM

I only saw Aparicio at the end of his career, so it's not fair for me to judge him "eyes only."

As an eyewitness: (1) Ozzie (2) Concepcion (3) Belanger (4) Ripken (5) Larkin (6) tie, Trammell and Fernandez.

I am evaluating each at their peak.

Skip · 07-23-2002, 11:04 PM

I may be wrong, but to me the tone makes it appear that some of the lists here are "overall" lists and some are "defense" lists.

Overall, eliminating the aforementioned boppers
1. Ozzie
1A. Larkin
3. Trammell
4. Vizquel
5. Concepcion

pwdennis · 07-23-2002, 11:05 PM

My picks:

Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Luis Aparicio
Ozzie Smith

Trammell's best years were far better than the other three. If he wasn't so injury prone, the boppers seven would be the boppers eight and Trammell would not be part of this particular discussion

Larkin's best years were quite a bit better than the best years of Aparicio or Smith

Larkin will probably pass Ozzie Smith in career Win Shares this season. Trammell has a few less Win Shares than Ozzie on many less games played

VNV Nation · 07-23-2002, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pwdennis
My picks:

Alan Trammell
Barry Larkin
Luis Aparicio
Ozzie Smith

Trammell's best years were far better than the other three. If he wasn't so injury prone, the boppers seven would be the boppers eight and Trammell would not be part of this particular discussion

Larkin's best years were quite a bit better than the best years of Aparicio or Smith

Larkin will probably pass Ozzie Smith in career Win Shares this season. Trammell has a few less Win Shares than Ozzie on many less games played

I don't see Trammell as far better. I don't think he was ever as good as Larkin. Trammell had the best single season, but that was sorta flukey, as was Ozzie's season the same year.

JamesI · 07-23-2002, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweaver
I only saw Aparicio at the end of his career, so it's not fair for me to judge him "eyes only."

As an eyewitness: (1) Ozzie (2) Concepcion (3) Belanger (4) Ripken (5) Larkin (6) tie, Trammell and Fernandez.

I am evaluating each at their peak.

this is a defense list right? There's no way Ripken is below Belanger or Concepcion overall.

VNV Nation · 07-23-2002, 11:20 PM

If it's a defense list, I can't see how Trammell belongs. There must be 20 guys over the past 20 years as good...A-Rod, Tejada, Alex Gonzalez, Disarcina, etc.

sweaver · 07-23-2002, 11:29 PM

My list is only defense, yes. And no, VNV, none of those guys was better than Trammell, at his peak, IMO.

PW has Ozzie 4th, and Trammell 1st? I'm shocked, I say, SHOCKED!

VNV Nation · 07-23-2002, 11:33 PM

Wow, really? Better than Ozzie Guillen and Vizquel? I thought Trammell was a fine fielder but someone who won Gold Gloves with his bat -- on turf i don't think he would have been all that great.

SmedIndy · 07-23-2002, 11:35 PM

I didn't see Bowa that much early in his career, but I don't think his RFs were that good and he never struck me as someone who would go out and get balls. The balls just came to him.

pwdennis · 07-24-2002, 12:18 AM

I didn't say this was a defense list - it was a list to evaluate the overall value of players of the type that were typically found at SS before the current (A-Rod/Nomar) model. Some of the old shortstops were nothing but defense, some of them had more elements to their game.

IF speaking of defense only, it would be Vizquel, Smith, Aparicio, Belanger - in any order you like

07-23-2002, 08:46 PM	#1
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	Shortstops, Aparicio, Smith, Trammell ... Robin Yount, Cal Ripken and the generations that followed him have changed the perceptions of what a shortstop should be. With the exception of Honus Wagner and Ernie Banks, none of the pre-Ripken generation of shortstops can compete with the Garciaparra, Rodriguez and Jeters of the world. Omar Visquel, a truly terrific defensive player is hardly ever mentioned in the same breathe as the big three. Twenty-five years ago he might have been regarded as the best in the game. Smed and I have been disagreeing on the merits of Ozzie Smith as a first ballot HOF selection. I consider him a marginal HOF candidate; Smed considers him truly worthy and the greatest defensive player at any position. From my perspective, it's very hard to separate the case for Ozzie Smith from the case for Aparicio. They are each other's closest comps and their offensive stats are eerily similar. Defensively, Ozzie had the advantage of playing on artificial turf and on grass fields that were better maintained than some of the diamonds that Little Looie played on. Consequently, Smith's fielding percentage is a bit better. Both won many GGs (the award started after Aparicio's career had begun). If you placed them both on the same fields, I doubt you could tell them apart. Ozzie had a bit better batting eye as far as OBP but Aparicio had more power. Both hit .262 for their career. Aparicio beats Smith in the Black Ink, Gray Ink, HOF standards and HOF monitor tests. Since Aparicio played in the AL during the 1960s, his offensive stats, taken in context, are better than those of Smith. Smed is too young to have seen Aparicio at his peak. I did see him, many times, and he was really something. I guess the reason I was never as impressed with Ozzie Smith as many others were is that I already had seen the best in Aparicio. Defensively, Smith did age a little better than Aparicio. Still, they are two peas in a pod. Having said that, I wouldn't trade Alan Trammell even up for either of them. You'd have to toss in something (a #3 starter or a good middle reliever) to tempt me to part with Trammell for Oz or Luis. I never saw Marty Marion, Pee Wee Reese or Phil Rizzuto play at all, and defensive wizard Roy McMillan I only saw at the end of his career. Eddie Brinkman was a fine defensive player but a very poor offensive player. Gene Alley was a very fine defensive player whose career was cut short by injuries. Davy Concepcion was very good. Mark Belanger was a poor offensive player but a very good defensive player - maybe the equal of Aparicio, Visquel and Smith (his range factors are watered down because of his light hitting - he played many partial games in his career). Larry Bowa was perhaps the most reliable shortstop of all time, virtually never messing up a routine play. Leaving out the boppers seven (Wagner, Banks, Yount, Ripken, Jeter, Rodriguez, and Garciaparra), how would you assess the shortstops you've seen ? __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

07-23-2002, 11:05 PM	#8
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	My picks: Alan Trammell Barry Larkin Luis Aparicio Ozzie Smith Trammell's best years were far better than the other three. If he wasn't so injury prone, the boppers seven would be the boppers eight and Trammell would not be part of this particular discussion Larkin's best years were quite a bit better than the best years of Aparicio or Smith Larkin will probably pass Ozzie Smith in career Win Shares this season. Trammell has a few less Win Shares than Ozzie on many less games played __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

07-24-2002, 12:18 AM	#15
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I didn't say this was a defense list - it was a list to evaluate the overall value of players of the type that were typically found at SS before the current (A-Rod/Nomar) model. Some of the old shortstops were nothing but defense, some of them had more elements to their game. IF speaking of defense only, it would be Vizquel, Smith, Aparicio, Belanger - in any order you like __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

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07-23-2002, 09:48 PM	#2
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Larkin Ozzie Tony Fernandez Trammell Vizquel Concepcion I wouldn't take Fernandez's career over Trammell's, but for a few years there, he was as good as it got.

07-23-2002, 10:22 PM	#3
JamesI Netshrine Vacuum Cleaner Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Potsdam, N.Y. Posts: 3,723	Before I start, since this said only those we've seen, I'm leaving out some really good names like Aparicio. Alan Trammell Ozzie Smith Barry Larkin Omar Vizquel

07-23-2002, 10:29 PM	#4
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	No, I didn't see Aparicio at his peak, but I didn't see Honus Wagner at his peak and I know he's the best damn shortstop ever to play the game. Smith's defensive prowess, based not on fielding percentage at all but other considerations, in my mind are still superior to Aparicios. But that's like choosing a diamond over an emerald. And shortstop is the one position I value defense over offense. If you can't pick it, you better not play there. And you better have range. I would have booted Bowa because he wouldn't move for anything. He was a statue. For my eyes: Ozzie Larkin Vizquel Trammell Concepcion Dunston could really pick it, if his heart was in it. He's probably the most disappointing of the bunch. The era was full of guys like Bowa, Metzger, Enzo Hernandez, Bud Harrelson, Raffy Ramirez type of players.

07-23-2002, 10:47 PM	#5
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I'm sorry, I ranked them before as overall/peak players. Based just on defense alone, I'd rank them: Ozzie Ordonez Concepcion Fernandez Larkin Vizquel I don't know, I saw Bowa play every day for six years and he seemed like he had good range to me.

07-23-2002, 10:59 PM	#6
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	I only saw Aparicio at the end of his career, so it's not fair for me to judge him "eyes only." As an eyewitness: (1) Ozzie (2) Concepcion (3) Belanger (4) Ripken (5) Larkin (6) tie, Trammell and Fernandez. I am evaluating each at their peak.

07-23-2002, 11:04 PM	#7
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	I may be wrong, but to me the tone makes it appear that some of the lists here are "overall" lists and some are "defense" lists. Overall, eliminating the aforementioned boppers 1. Ozzie 1A. Larkin 3. Trammell 4. Vizquel 5. Concepcion

07-23-2002, 11:20 PM	#11
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	If it's a defense list, I can't see how Trammell belongs. There must be 20 guys over the past 20 years as good...A-Rod, Tejada, Alex Gonzalez, Disarcina, etc.

07-23-2002, 11:29 PM	#12
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	My list is only defense, yes. And no, VNV, none of those guys was better than Trammell, at his peak, IMO. PW has Ozzie 4th, and Trammell 1st? I'm shocked, I say, SHOCKED!

07-23-2002, 11:33 PM	#13
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Wow, really? Better than Ozzie Guillen and Vizquel? I thought Trammell was a fine fielder but someone who won Gold Gloves with his bat -- on turf i don't think he would have been all that great.

07-23-2002, 11:35 PM	#14
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	I didn't see Bowa that much early in his career, but I don't think his RFs were that good and he never struck me as someone who would go out and get balls. The balls just came to him.

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