Edgar Martinez

[VNV Nation]

OK you Belle and Kiner supporters...what about Edgar?

I think Edgar has been a greater hitter than either one of these guys, with more great years, too. So, how about it?

[sweaver]

I think this thread belongs in PA&S, since Edgar is active.

Edgar is a terrific hitter, but, I think, falls short of the Hall. For a DH, he just hasn't compiled enough numbers, largely due to injuries.

[pwdennis]

Very close - nearly a yes right now but I'll wait to see what the final numbers reflect

[moose]

a great hitter, but no.

i dont think i could vote in a pure dh, and one that was hurt a lot at that.

sorry !

[VNV Nation]

The way I see it:

Edgar has been a better hitter than either Belle or Kiner.

Edgar .319 .425 .530
Belle .295 .369 .564
Kiner .279 .398 .548

OPS+
Edgar 150
Kiner 149
Belle 143

Edgar's career is now longer than Kiner or Belle, with more great years than either one:

Top 10 in league, OPS
Edgar (8 seasons)
1.107-1
.948-3
1.059-4
1.009-4
1.001-4
.966-5
.993-6
1.002-8

Belle (5 seasons)
1.055-1
1.152-2
1.091-2
.922-7
1.033-7

Kiner (6 seasons)
1.055-1
1.089-1
1.079-1
.998-2
.924-4
.884-6

Edgar is ahead of Kiner in all career totals, except home runs. Belle is ahead of Edgar in home runs and RBIs, but Edgar is ahead in runs, hits, total bases, times on base, walks.

I can't see how the defense of either one of these guys puts them that much ahead. In fact, Edgar probably had more defensive value in his 3 1/2 years at third base than these guys in their careers.

I'm not advocating Edgar for the Hall, but I think I would rather have Edgar than either one.
Unless you argue that home runs are everything, I don't see how Belle and Kiner are Hall of Famers while Edgar isn't.

[Craig S.]

Edgar has not played defense since his very young years, which makes him an incomplete player in my book.

It's not just defensive skill that I value. I also value the fact that someone goes out and puts their body through the daily wear of playing a game in the field, instead of 4 or 5 trips to the plate. I know fielding isn't always a huge effort, but it certainly requires greater effort than just batting.

Edgar's numbers would have to be far better as a DH for me to give him consideration.

[Golden Bear]

Edgar's percentage numbers are no-questions-asked HOF. He does well on James' tests and he's been a good guy for the game. He's led the league in BA, OBP, OPS, doubles, runs, and RBI.

His counting stats, however, are far short of typical HOF baselines. and the DH is a serious stumbling block. You do help your team by fielding a position, even if you don't necessarily field it very well; Edgar hasn't offered that since 1994.

I dunno...I want to support Edgar for the Hall, but I can't see him getting past the writers unless he pads his stats over at least 3 more seasons (and he's lost much of this one); further, I can't see him getting past any conceivable VC as a DH.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think he's going to fall into that gray area and get stuck there unless he has a very strong finish, and that's going to be hard as a 39 year old on the DL.

[Skip]

Moved to PA&S. I like Edgar and feel if a DH is to make it, he's the one for now (discounting Frank Thomas). But I am unsure whether he, Belle, or Kiner are quite there. If ranking them, I'd go Kiner, Belle, Edgar, with only Kiner, if that, in the HOF.

[KCBOOMER]

Edgar is going to be a tough. If you put him in he really looks very marginal on his counting numbers. He's had a funny career in that he didn't become a regular in the Bigs until he was 27 which usually tells you that he shouldn't be very good. He's also been a DH most of his career.

His only two comps that are in the HoF are Chuck Klein and Earl Averill. Many people think of those guys as mistakes (Smed????). Jeff Bagwell is a comp who could begin HoF worthy with 4-5 more good years. Larry Walker is another comp as is Frank Thomas. Pretty good group of comps but not a hands down HoFer in them.

Edgar fares well in the saber stats against Belle and Kiner as VNV shows us but he really fails against those guys if you say was he ever a "dominant" player which is the test I most prefer with short career guys.

I think the thing that might get him over is that he is a good guy and will get a lot of support from ESPN.

[Skip]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
I think the thing that might get him over is that he is a good guy and will get a lot of support from ESPN.

To quote a Budweiser ad ... "True". I'm not happy with the thought that ESPN will be basically picking the HOF classes from 2010 and beyond though (if not sooner).

[sweaver]

Originally posted by Skip
I like Edgar and feel if a DH is to make it, he's the one for now (discounting Frank Thomas). If ranking them, I'd go Kiner, Belle, Edgar, with only Kiner, if that, in the HOF.

Agreed. Adding, Kiner played CF in his rookie year, and played a pretty good OF his first three years, at least matching Martinez. His arm was maligned, but his assists totals were not bad for most of his career.

It is not Edgar's fault he didn't get to play regularly until he was 27, but it will likely cost him the Hall.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Edgar is a HOF-quality player who would probably be favored to go into the HOF if he played any defensive position, however poorly, while putting up the numbers he has put up.

Edgar was ready to play regularly long before he became a regular in 1990, but the doofus management of the M's at the time weren't done with Jim Presley yet. I estimate that he was ready to play regularly in the major leagues as early as 1987.

It didn't turn out that way.

I guess the main reason I wouldn't advocate Edgar's selection for the HOF is that, in his case, his offensive totals wouldn't be what they are if he didn't DH. That's not true for the Big Hurt, but it is for Edgar. Edgar needs the DH to stay healthy; it's not that he can't field. If the DH were eliminated, Edgar would be finished, due to injuries, in the blink of an eye.

[LeGrandOrange]

I'll get my opinion in so VNV Nation can shoot it down.

Edgar should be in...he won't get in because writers are stupid, but I think he's highly worthy. There've been a lot of guys that have been inducted as hitters, and Edgar has the requirements to be in as such, and he really passes the requirements with flying colours.
Between 1995-2001, there are only two hitters that are better than him sabermetrically, Barry Bonds and Jeff Bagwell. He's simply been the American League's best hitter since he was DH'd. 7 years is long enough to get you in on peak value. (Win Share numbers be damned, I don't particularly care about a stat that a layperson can't figure out)
What also might help him is if he's borderline, he wins on intangibles...I mean, Edgar is a warm, jovial personality, and although Leo Durocher has been quoted as allegedly saying that nice guys finish last, being nice DOES help you get into establishments such as the Hall.
It's irrelevant that this guy is a DH...Paul Molitor will be automatic into the hall...Molly is a DH. Not as religious of a DH as Gar, of course, but his peak years were as a designated hitter. With Molitor expected to be first ballot in 2 years, the DH limitation on Edgar will be lessened somewhat, and maybe writers will recognize that.
Never the less, he should be in, that's my final answer.

[VNV Nation]

I would love for Edgar to get into the Hall of Fame, but I fear he may be a bit short.

That said...I feel comfortable saying that he would pass Dick Allen as the greatest hitter NOT in the Hall of Fame.

[JamesI]

Is it fair to hold being a DH against a player, when there doesn't seem to be a similiar punishment for positional players like Right and Left fielders who were horrible defensivly but could hit. I'm not sure Edgar is a hall of famer, and while I don't think Baines is worthy he'll be kept out because he was a DH. Anyone who could stand in right field and put up Baines hit, home run and rbi numbers would be in.