New Save Rule?

Max Power · 07-07-2002, 08:54 AM

Reading some of the comments in this thread
http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...=&postid=62485

reminded me of an idea I had one day - - redoing the save rule. Here's what I thought, that day, that they should do to award a save - - now, keep in mind, I thought of this one day while watching a game and only gave it 5 minutes thought, so, it's not deep or well thought out - - - it's just an idea.

Condition 1 - - you need to be the pitcher who gets the final out in your team's win.

Condition 2 - - along with condition one, you need to record (at least) the number of outs equal to the number of runs which your team led by when you entered the game.

A few examples:

Your team leads by one run, you come into the game in the 9th with two outs, and get the final out for the win. You get a save.

Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win. You get a save.

Your team leads by three runs, you come into the game in the 9th with no outs, and get the final three outs for the win. You get a save.

Your team leads by two runs, you come into the game in the 9th with two outs, and get the final out for the win. You do not get a save.

Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with two outs, and get the final four out for the win. You do not get a save.

Your team leads by three runs, you come into the game in the 9th with one out, and get the final two outs for the win. You do not get a save.

Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win - giving up 3 runs in the process. You still get a save.

Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win. In the bottom of the 8th, your team scores 7 to make it a 12 run lead. You still get a save - since it was a 5 run lead when you came in.

OK, those are some examples to explain how it would work - - - any thoughts on this suggestion?

rcartman28 · 07-07-2002, 11:44 AM

sounds interesting, but I would favor also awarding a save if a pitcher pitched with the tying run(s) either at the plate or on the bases even if Condition 2 were not met (assuming, of course, he did get the final out of the game). I would find it hard to justify not giving a save to somebody who gets the final two outs in a 4-1 game when he came in with the bases loaded.......

....just a thought, although I suspect the save statistic has become somewhat of a function of how the manager uses his staff......

SmedIndy · 07-07-2002, 07:04 PM

Steve -

My idea of doing away with saves totally, and just granting leads held makes more sense.

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...ighlight=Saves

Max Power · 07-07-2002, 08:20 PM

to who Smed?

VNV Nation · 07-07-2002, 09:17 PM

I like your ideas, but I don't know about getting five outs in a 10-5 game.

I think we could modify the existing save rule to make it a slightly better indicator of a pitcher's performance. I have a problem with the tying run on deck idea. If a reliever comes in with the bases loaded in a 10-5 game, he could give up a grand slam to the first batter he faces, and still get a save. I don't think that's what the manager had in mind.

One possibility would be something called Fireman's Points. You would start by assessing point values to each situation. Let's say that starting the inning is a one-point situation, coming in with a guy on first and no one out and a three-run lead is 2 points, bases loaded with no outs with a one-run lead would be something like 15 points. From there, you build a system of debits and credits for things like getting an out, allowing inherited runners to score, each hit, walk, run allowed, etc. Finishing the game would be worth something, but ending an inning with a lead intact would be worth something, too.

I have no idea what this system would look like, but I suspect that the best middle relievers who pitch in crucial situations would do very well.

VNV Nation · 07-07-2002, 10:30 PM

Start with:

Bases loaded, no outs = 12 points
Bases loaded, 1 out = 11 points
Bases loaded, 2 outs = 10 points
Two men on, no outs = 9 points
Two men on, 1 out = 8 points
Two men on, 2 outs = 7 points
One on, no outs = 6 points
One on, 1 out = 5 points
One on, 2 outs = 4 points
None on, no outs = 3 points
None on, 1 out = 2 points
None on, 2 outs = 1 point

Add
2 point for each out recorded.
5 points for earning a Win or Save
12 points for entering with the score tied
9 points for entering with a 1-run lead
6 points for entering with a 2-run lead
3 points for entering with a 3-run lead

Subtract
2 points for a non-intentional walk
3 points for each hit
5 points for a blown save or Loss
5 points for being charged with an unearned run
8 points for allowing inherited runner to score
8 points for an earned run
8 points if the tying run scores while he's on the mound.
10 points for giving up go-ahead run while he's on the mound.

Let's say Arthur Rhodes enters the game with the bases loaded, game tied, no outs in the top of the eighth. He strikes out all three batters he faces, killing the threat.

Steve Karsay starts the bottom of the eighth, gets an out but then gives up a single to McLemore and a double to Edgar, putting runners on second and third. Mariano Rivera enters, gives up a sac fly to Olerud, then retires the next batter. M's take one=-run lead.

Kaz enters with a one-run lead, gives up a single but records the save with no further damage.

For Rhodes:
He enters with a 24-point situation, 12 for bases loaded, no outs, 12 for tied game. He gets 6 points for the three outs, 5 points for the win, for a Herculean 35-point effort.

For Karsay:
Enters with a 15-point situation (3 points for None/None, 12 for game tied), and earns two points for an out. But he loses 6 points for the hits, 8 points for being charged with the run, 5 points for getting tagged with the L. That's a -2 performance.

For Rivera:
Enters game with 20-point situation (8 for two on, 1 out, plus two for each runner in scoring position, 12 points for game tied), and gets 4 points for the 2 outs. Loses 8 points for allowing inherited runner to score, 10 points for allowing go-ahead run to score. That's a +6 performance.

For Sasaki:
He enters with a 12-point situation, 3 for none on, none out, and 9 for a one-run lead. He gets 6 points for 3 outs, 5 points for the save, but loses 4 points for the hit. That's a 19-point performance, a great job, but about half as important as what Rhodes did.

SmedIndy · 07-07-2002, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power
to who Smed?

To me, and to all right thinking Americans. We don't need long, overblown rules here that you need an abacus to calculate. Simple law and order. Hold the lead, or be damned to eternal toil in Pawtucket or Salt Lake City.

Amen....

Now turn your hymnal to #356...Onward Baseball Soldiers....

Skip · 07-07-2002, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by VNV Nation
Start with <details omitted from the quote>

It's official - VNV is really Bill James!

VNV Nation · 07-07-2002, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skip
It's official - VNV is really Bill James!

God, no.

Pilgrim · 07-08-2002, 12:06 AM

I just think there's something wrong with a system that awards Blown Saves to relievers who enter the game in the late innings but does not give those same relievers a chance to actually get a save should another pitcher relieve them.

I've always thought about an idea along the lines of Max's -- number of outs needed to record being equal to the number of runs ahead. I think it's a good start, but I don't like the requirement that the pitcher has to get the last out of the game. If a guy enters the game in the 3rd or the 6th with the game on the line and keeps his team in it, then he should get the same credit as the guy who does the job in the 9th. Not sure how that would work, but that would seem most fair.

SmedIndy · 07-08-2002, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pilgrim
I just think there's something wrong with a system that awards Blown Saves to relievers who enter the game in the late innings but does not give those same relievers a chance to actually get a save should another pitcher relieve them.

Not to tout my system again, but all leads (well, all leads within reason) are created equal, and all pitchers are seen as equal. So we won't have to worry about Alfonseca or Wickman being tabbed a "closer" when he was just lucky enough to grab the chair when the music stopped....

pwdennis · 07-08-2002, 02:09 AM

I think keeping track of ERA and inherited runners allowed to score should be enough. If you want to keep saves as a stat make it at the discretion of the official scorer to award the save to the relief pitcher who pitches most effectively, not the last pitcher.

In a 2-1 Braves victory

Glavine pitches 5 scoreless innings and leaves leading 2-0
A middle reliever pitches 3 scoreless innings
Smoltz pitches one inning giving up a run

Give the save to the middle reliever

VNV Nation · 07-08-2002, 02:57 AM

I don't think a radical redefinition of the save rule is needed.

SmedIndy · 07-08-2002, 09:28 AM

Just elimination of it....sorry, I'll stop flogging now. I'm sure you all know my disdain....

KCBOOMER · 07-08-2002, 09:50 AM

Any damn fool, except Roberto Hernandez, should be able to protect a 2 or 3 run lead by pitching one inning when you get to start with no one on base. I hate it when a guy gets a save when he entered in the ninth with no outs and no one on and gives up a run or two.

07-07-2002, 08:54 AM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	New Save Rule? Reading some of the comments in this thread http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...=&postid=62485 reminded me of an idea I had one day - - redoing the save rule. Here's what I thought, that day, that they should do to award a save - - now, keep in mind, I thought of this one day while watching a game and only gave it 5 minutes thought, so, it's not deep or well thought out - - - it's just an idea. Condition 1 - - you need to be the pitcher who gets the final out in your team's win. Condition 2 - - along with condition one, you need to record (at least) the number of outs equal to the number of runs which your team led by when you entered the game. A few examples: Your team leads by one run, you come into the game in the 9th with two outs, and get the final out for the win. You get a save. Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win. You get a save. Your team leads by three runs, you come into the game in the 9th with no outs, and get the final three outs for the win. You get a save. Your team leads by two runs, you come into the game in the 9th with two outs, and get the final out for the win. You do not get a save. Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with two outs, and get the final four out for the win. You do not get a save. Your team leads by three runs, you come into the game in the 9th with one out, and get the final two outs for the win. You do not get a save. Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win - giving up 3 runs in the process. You still get a save. Your team leads by five runs, you come into the game in the 8th with one out, and get the final five outs for the win. In the bottom of the 8th, your team scores 7 to make it a 12 run lead. You still get a save - since it was a 5 run lead when you came in. OK, those are some examples to explain how it would work - - - any thoughts on this suggestion? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

07-07-2002, 11:44 AM	#2
rcartman28 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hudson, WI Posts: 1,408	sounds interesting, but I would favor also awarding a save if a pitcher pitched with the tying run(s) either at the plate or on the bases even if Condition 2 were not met (assuming, of course, he did get the final out of the game). I would find it hard to justify not giving a save to somebody who gets the final two outs in a 4-1 game when he came in with the bases loaded....... ....just a thought, although I suspect the save statistic has become somewhat of a function of how the manager uses his staff...... __________________ I would have looked out for the water main. But that's just me..... Brett Favre

07-07-2002, 08:20 PM	#4
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	to who Smed? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

07-08-2002, 12:06 AM	#10
Pilgrim NetShrine MVP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Barbara, CA Posts: 191	I just think there's something wrong with a system that awards Blown Saves to relievers who enter the game in the late innings but does not give those same relievers a chance to actually get a save should another pitcher relieve them. I've always thought about an idea along the lines of Max's -- number of outs needed to record being equal to the number of runs ahead. I think it's a good start, but I don't like the requirement that the pitcher has to get the last out of the game. If a guy enters the game in the 3rd or the 6th with the game on the line and keeps his team in it, then he should get the same credit as the guy who does the job in the 9th. Not sure how that would work, but that would seem most fair. __________________ Never trust a car salesman from Milwaukee. [/color]

07-08-2002, 02:09 AM	#12
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I think keeping track of ERA and inherited runners allowed to score should be enough. If you want to keep saves as a stat make it at the discretion of the official scorer to award the save to the relief pitcher who pitches most effectively, not the last pitcher. In a 2-1 Braves victory Glavine pitches 5 scoreless innings and leaves leading 2-0 A middle reliever pitches 3 scoreless innings Smoltz pitches one inning giving up a run Give the save to the middle reliever __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

07-07-2002, 07:04 PM	#3
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Steve - My idea of doing away with saves totally, and just granting leads held makes more sense. http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...ighlight=Saves

07-07-2002, 09:17 PM	#5
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I like your ideas, but I don't know about getting five outs in a 10-5 game. I think we could modify the existing save rule to make it a slightly better indicator of a pitcher's performance. I have a problem with the tying run on deck idea. If a reliever comes in with the bases loaded in a 10-5 game, he could give up a grand slam to the first batter he faces, and still get a save. I don't think that's what the manager had in mind. One possibility would be something called Fireman's Points. You would start by assessing point values to each situation. Let's say that starting the inning is a one-point situation, coming in with a guy on first and no one out and a three-run lead is 2 points, bases loaded with no outs with a one-run lead would be something like 15 points. From there, you build a system of debits and credits for things like getting an out, allowing inherited runners to score, each hit, walk, run allowed, etc. Finishing the game would be worth something, but ending an inning with a lead intact would be worth something, too. I have no idea what this system would look like, but I suspect that the best middle relievers who pitch in crucial situations would do very well.

07-07-2002, 10:30 PM	#6
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	Start with: Bases loaded, no outs = 12 points Bases loaded, 1 out = 11 points Bases loaded, 2 outs = 10 points Two men on, no outs = 9 points Two men on, 1 out = 8 points Two men on, 2 outs = 7 points One on, no outs = 6 points One on, 1 out = 5 points One on, 2 outs = 4 points None on, no outs = 3 points None on, 1 out = 2 points None on, 2 outs = 1 point Add 2 point for each out recorded. 5 points for earning a Win or Save 12 points for entering with the score tied 9 points for entering with a 1-run lead 6 points for entering with a 2-run lead 3 points for entering with a 3-run lead Subtract 2 points for a non-intentional walk 3 points for each hit 5 points for a blown save or Loss 5 points for being charged with an unearned run 8 points for allowing inherited runner to score 8 points for an earned run 8 points if the tying run scores while he's on the mound. 10 points for giving up go-ahead run while he's on the mound. Let's say Arthur Rhodes enters the game with the bases loaded, game tied, no outs in the top of the eighth. He strikes out all three batters he faces, killing the threat. Steve Karsay starts the bottom of the eighth, gets an out but then gives up a single to McLemore and a double to Edgar, putting runners on second and third. Mariano Rivera enters, gives up a sac fly to Olerud, then retires the next batter. M's take one=-run lead. Kaz enters with a one-run lead, gives up a single but records the save with no further damage. For Rhodes: He enters with a 24-point situation, 12 for bases loaded, no outs, 12 for tied game. He gets 6 points for the three outs, 5 points for the win, for a Herculean 35-point effort. For Karsay: Enters with a 15-point situation (3 points for None/None, 12 for game tied), and earns two points for an out. But he loses 6 points for the hits, 8 points for being charged with the run, 5 points for getting tagged with the L. That's a -2 performance. For Rivera: Enters game with 20-point situation (8 for two on, 1 out, plus two for each runner in scoring position, 12 points for game tied), and gets 4 points for the 2 outs. Loses 8 points for allowing inherited runner to score, 10 points for allowing go-ahead run to score. That's a +6 performance. For Sasaki: He enters with a 12-point situation, 3 for none on, none out, and 9 for a one-run lead. He gets 6 points for 3 outs, 5 points for the save, but loses 4 points for the hit. That's a 19-point performance, a great job, but about half as important as what Rhodes did.

07-08-2002, 02:57 AM	#13
VNV Nation Membership Suspended 11/19/02 Join Date: May 2002 Location: VNV Nation Posts: 2,952	I don't think a radical redefinition of the save rule is needed.

07-08-2002, 09:28 AM	#14
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Just elimination of it....sorry, I'll stop flogging now. I'm sure you all know my disdain.... Last edited by SmedIndy : 07-08-2002 at 09:36 AM.

07-08-2002, 09:50 AM	#15
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Any damn fool, except Roberto Hernandez, should be able to protect a 2 or 3 run lead by pitching one inning when you get to start with no one on base. I hate it when a guy gets a save when he entered in the ninth with no outs and no one on and gives up a run or two. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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