Angel Echavarria vs. Juilo Zuleta

clemente21 · 07-02-2002, 10:47 PM

Let me preface this by saying that I've always liked Angel Echavarria for some odd reason. But can somebody explain to me why he is taking up space on the Cubs 25-man roster instead of using that space to showcase Julio Zuleta for a trade?

Given that the Cubs have all but held a press conference to announce that Zuleta isn't going to be in their plans, you figure they'd be happy to get a AA LOOGY for him, right?? But still he sits in Iowa, hitting for significant power and backing up Hee Choi.

Or maybe I've got it backwards and they're showcasing Angel? Is Angel better than Matt Franco or Wil Cordero or whoever the Marlins' backup 1B is?

More importantly, who should be Choi's backup next year? Zuleta or Echavarria? Or maybe forget both of them and let Mark Belhorn do it for a year until David Kelton is ready??

SmedIndy · 07-02-2002, 10:59 PM

Keep Bellhorn. Keep Echeverria. Look very closely at Deshields, Stynes, Girardi/Hundley, or Lewis. They're the ones that need to be on the streets while Julio suffers in silence.

clemente21 · 07-02-2002, 11:17 PM

Smed, I'll give the first four of those guys you mention a pass because neither Zuleta nor Angel can play C or 2B. Of course, either DeShields or Stynes really does have to go so that Don can have his Augie Ojeda teddy bear back - my guess is that DeShields will be donated to a team that for some insane reason wishes they had the fast Brian Hunter as their 5th OF but will settle for DeShields. But I'm getting off thread now.

But I forgot about Darren Lewis... it's easy to do. Corey Patterson appears to be working out, so now it's time to send Darren on his way. If they're going to keep Rosie Brown (and that's another mystery to me, I guess somebody needs to be there to get Girardi coffee from the clubhouse) then Brown can play CF or RF on the days that Patterson or Sosa need a break. That leaves Zuleta and Echavarria to hang out on the bench and wait for Alou to get hurt again.

SmedIndy · 07-02-2002, 11:23 PM

Well, the Cubs don't need Stynes AND Bellhorn AND Deshields, and I was thinking they still had Machado, but they bungled that, too, so we're stuck with the geezer and the gimp.

cubfan33 · 07-03-2002, 09:18 AM

I can't disagree with Clemente21 more strongly.

I observed Don Baylor sending Ojeda down by handing him a plane ticket - no explanation, no nothing. A classless move. I don't think Ojeda and Baylor are particularly tight.

I think Stynes was a good ST pickup, as was Bellhorn. Both played multiple positions and with Mueller questionable, it was a nice move. However, you don't need both and Bellhorn has outplayed Stynes by a large margin.

DeShields causes me problems now - as a player, he needs to vanish, but he was such a nice guy that it's not as easy for me to say that. Being a nice guy doesn't unblock Bobby Hill so DeShields needs to go, Hill come back, and Bellhorn can backup the entire infield.

Lewis I never understood at all. Never.

Hundley seems to have figured something out and is playing better. Girardi has a bit of a niche as a decent BACKUP but Baylor insists on using him as more than a caddy for Prior.

The fact is, neither Zuleta nor Echevarria have much of a future beyond journeyman pinch hitter, if that. McGriff will be gone next year and Choi in his place. Kelton to me remains a very open question. Kevin Orie would be a better fit - could play 1B/3B, hits for equal power as Zuleta with more contact.

clemente21 · 07-03-2002, 11:08 AM

I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about beyond Ojeda. And my opinion of Ojeda is based on him being a WGN-proclaimed "fan favorite" and Baylor/McPhail even having him up here in the first place. Why slender bad middle infielders are always "fan favorites" is a topic for another thread. Since you actually have clubhouse access, I'll defer to your judgement here.

We agree on Stynes, DeShields (he has been a class act as far as I can tell, and deserves an attempt from McPhail/Hendry to get him onto a contending team once Hill comes up to stay), Hundley, and Girardi.

Back to the original topic:
Echavarria has maxed out his potential at this point. Zuleta may not have done so yet, but he has no home in Wrigley in which to find out. My question was since several contending teams have big gaps at 1B or backup 1B, why aren't the Cubs trying to showcase Zuelta for a trade. Not to be a starter at 1B, but to be a bat that can come off the bench in August and September for an Atlanta, a Seattle, or a Montreal.

SmedIndy · 07-03-2002, 12:28 PM

Perhaps they think Zuleta is being showcased better in Iowa.

He's not on the 40-man anymore, and no team claimed him on waivers. So the Cub Fan opinion of him may be greater than the baseball opinion of him....

clemente21 · 07-03-2002, 01:16 PM

Aha... I didn't catch the fact that Zuleta is not on the 40-man any more. That explains a lot right there.

CubFan7125 · 07-04-2002, 12:56 PM

How about letting them both go to Japan or Mexico or the Northern League or wherever it is that semi-talented 4A players finish up their careers. They could also take Todd Hundley, Chip Caray's pet Augie & Rosie Brown with them. These guys are good AAA players with little to no value to a contending club. I'm not saying the Cubs are a contending club, but I can always dream.

Also, Will is right about Bellhorn, he has been a nice pick-up.

07-02-2002, 10:47 PM	#1
clemente21 All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 461	Angel Echavarria vs. Juilo Zuleta Let me preface this by saying that I've always liked Angel Echavarria for some odd reason. But can somebody explain to me why he is taking up space on the Cubs 25-man roster instead of using that space to showcase Julio Zuleta for a trade? Given that the Cubs have all but held a press conference to announce that Zuleta isn't going to be in their plans, you figure they'd be happy to get a AA LOOGY for him, right?? But still he sits in Iowa, hitting for significant power and backing up Hee Choi. Or maybe I've got it backwards and they're showcasing Angel? Is Angel better than Matt Franco or Wil Cordero or whoever the Marlins' backup 1B is? More importantly, who should be Choi's backup next year? Zuleta or Echavarria? Or maybe forget both of them and let Mark Belhorn do it for a year until David Kelton is ready??

07-03-2002, 09:18 AM	#5
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Disagree! I can't disagree with Clemente21 more strongly. I observed Don Baylor sending Ojeda down by handing him a plane ticket - no explanation, no nothing. A classless move. I don't think Ojeda and Baylor are particularly tight. I think Stynes was a good ST pickup, as was Bellhorn. Both played multiple positions and with Mueller questionable, it was a nice move. However, you don't need both and Bellhorn has outplayed Stynes by a large margin. DeShields causes me problems now - as a player, he needs to vanish, but he was such a nice guy that it's not as easy for me to say that. Being a nice guy doesn't unblock Bobby Hill so DeShields needs to go, Hill come back, and Bellhorn can backup the entire infield. Lewis I never understood at all. Never. Hundley seems to have figured something out and is playing better. Girardi has a bit of a niche as a decent BACKUP but Baylor insists on using him as more than a caddy for Prior. The fact is, neither Zuleta nor Echevarria have much of a future beyond journeyman pinch hitter, if that. McGriff will be gone next year and Choi in his place. Kelton to me remains a very open question. Kevin Orie would be a better fit - could play 1B/3B, hits for equal power as Zuleta with more contact. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

07-04-2002, 12:56 PM	#9
CubFan7125 Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mendota Heights, MN(Just Outside Of St Paul) Posts: 534	How about letting them both go to Japan or Mexico or the Northern League or wherever it is that semi-talented 4A players finish up their careers. They could also take Todd Hundley, Chip Caray's pet Augie & Rosie Brown with them. These guys are good AAA players with little to no value to a contending club. I'm not saying the Cubs are a contending club, but I can always dream. Also, Will is right about Bellhorn, he has been a nice pick-up. __________________ It's not a real HOF until Pete and Bert are in it Last edited by CubFan7125 : 07-04-2002 at 12:58 PM.

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07-02-2002, 10:59 PM	#2
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Keep Bellhorn. Keep Echeverria. Look very closely at Deshields, Stynes, Girardi/Hundley, or Lewis. They're the ones that need to be on the streets while Julio suffers in silence.

07-02-2002, 11:17 PM	#3
clemente21 All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 461	Smed, I'll give the first four of those guys you mention a pass because neither Zuleta nor Angel can play C or 2B. Of course, either DeShields or Stynes really does have to go so that Don can have his Augie Ojeda teddy bear back - my guess is that DeShields will be donated to a team that for some insane reason wishes they had the fast Brian Hunter as their 5th OF but will settle for DeShields. But I'm getting off thread now. But I forgot about Darren Lewis... it's easy to do. Corey Patterson appears to be working out, so now it's time to send Darren on his way. If they're going to keep Rosie Brown (and that's another mystery to me, I guess somebody needs to be there to get Girardi coffee from the clubhouse) then Brown can play CF or RF on the days that Patterson or Sosa need a break. That leaves Zuleta and Echavarria to hang out on the bench and wait for Alou to get hurt again.

07-02-2002, 11:23 PM	#4
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Well, the Cubs don't need Stynes AND Bellhorn AND Deshields, and I was thinking they still had Machado, but they bungled that, too, so we're stuck with the geezer and the gimp.

07-03-2002, 11:08 AM	#6
clemente21 All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 461	I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about beyond Ojeda. And my opinion of Ojeda is based on him being a WGN-proclaimed "fan favorite" and Baylor/McPhail even having him up here in the first place. Why slender bad middle infielders are always "fan favorites" is a topic for another thread. Since you actually have clubhouse access, I'll defer to your judgement here. We agree on Stynes, DeShields (he has been a class act as far as I can tell, and deserves an attempt from McPhail/Hendry to get him onto a contending team once Hill comes up to stay), Hundley, and Girardi. Back to the original topic: Echavarria has maxed out his potential at this point. Zuleta may not have done so yet, but he has no home in Wrigley in which to find out. My question was since several contending teams have big gaps at 1B or backup 1B, why aren't the Cubs trying to showcase Zuelta for a trade. Not to be a starter at 1B, but to be a bat that can come off the bench in August and September for an Atlanta, a Seattle, or a Montreal.

07-03-2002, 12:28 PM	#7
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Perhaps they think Zuleta is being showcased better in Iowa. He's not on the 40-man anymore, and no team claimed him on waivers. So the Cub Fan opinion of him may be greater than the baseball opinion of him....

07-03-2002, 01:16 PM	#8
clemente21 All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 461	Aha... I didn't catch the fact that Zuleta is not on the 40-man any more. That explains a lot right there.

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