Prior - Pitch Counts

[SmedIndy]

Mark Prior threw an awful lot of pitches last night. Over 120 in seven innings.

The Cubs haven't learned from Wood, nor has Baylor seemed to learn from the Rueben Quevedo debacle in 2000.

Are some of us being chicken littles, or is there legitamite concern here with Prior?

[Duque]

Given that he has never thrown that many in a game (at least not professionally - but I don't think he had at USC either), and given that he is the future of the Cubs, I'd think they'd be extraordinarily careful with him. Especially since they're not exactly competing right now.

[cubfan33]

Baylor had said when Prior came up that he would not allow him past 120. He was allowed to finish the inning, so a couple extra don't bother me. I'd have rather seen him pulled after the sixth (around 105) but as bad as the Cubs bullpen has been, I can understand it.

[poorme]

If I were the manager, I'd shoot for 110. By no means would he go over 120. This is especially idiotic since the Cubs are going nowhere.

[VNV Nation]

i wouldn't worry about it

[Max Power]

What was the score of the game? How were the innings (lots of men on base)? How many pitches were thrown from the wind-up v. the stretch? How many breaking pitches did he throw?

I'd rather have a guy throw a ball 60 feet 6 inches 120 times (all fastballs, with no batter) than throw 105 pitches in a 1-0 game where he had a runner on 3rd with no outs in three innings and he threw 65% curveballs and split fingers for the whole game.

Then again, I'm not saying Baylor is smart enough to make this call either............

[Craig S.]

Originally posted by cubfan33
Baylor had said when Prior came up that he would not allow him past 120. He was allowed to finish the inning, so a couple extra don't bother me. I'd have rather seen him pulled after the sixth (around 105) but as bad as the Cubs bullpen has been, I can understand it.

I thought he should have been pulled at this point. At the end of 6, he'd thrown 107 pitches. Granted, it was only 1-0, but I'd be far more worried about Prior's long-term health than I would be about a one-run lead in a season during which we're already 10 games below .500. I know he struck out the side in the seventh, but that doesn't mean he wasn't overworking that arm.

If any team, and any manager, should have learned by now to err on the side of caution, it should be Baylor and the Cubs.

[moose]

Originally posted by VNV Nation
i wouldn't worry about it

why not?

[Max Power]

Another thing to consider - MP is built like a truck, a big truck. To keep him in the 100-105 range forever is silly. He's not like Pedro. He's a big boy like Clemens - - who also is a guy, in his prime, that was good for 120 a start.

[moose]

Originally posted by Max Power
Another thing to consider - MP is built like a truck, a big truck. To keep him in the 100-105 range forever is silly. He's not like Pedro. He's a big boy like Clemens - - who also is a guy, in his prime, that was good for 120 a start.

I think for some of us, it's not "Good God, how dare Baylor let prior exceed 105 pitches?!?!"

but rather "ok, he can handle 120 pitches, but why bother unless wholly necessary?"

IMO, the extra inning wasnt necessary in that game

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Max Power
Another thing to consider - MP is built like a truck, a big truck. To keep him in the 100-105 range forever is silly. He's not like Pedro. He's a big boy like Clemens - - who also is a guy, in his prime, that was good for 120 a start.

Not forever, but not at 22 or 23....let him mature a bit.

Kerry Wood wasn't exactly built like Candy Cummings, ya know...

[VNV Nation]

I wouldn't worry about it because I don't think 125 pitches, as opposed to 105 pitches, is particularly destructive to anyone. It might be, on certain days, depending on the weather, or the length of the game, or if he makes a lot of throws to first, or just doesn't have it that day. The Cubs have been pretty careful not to overwork him in other starts, so if he was feeling strong, I don't see any reason not to keep him in there.

Now, I don't subscribe to the theory of "making a man" out of a kid by making him go 9 and throw 150 pitches, but I think the babying of pitchers these days is counterproductive and ridiculous. We have now an entire generation of pitchers who have been babied along from infancy practically, and there isn't any indication that having young pitchers go 6 innings, 190 innings keeps them healthier. The guys with the longest and best careers all threw 240+ innings quite often.

On a more cynical note....granted, the Cubs are out of it this year, but the idea of saving young pitchers for the future...well, it doesn't make much sense to me. If I were a manager of a club and had a 19-year-old Doc Gooden, I would pretty much handle him the way he was handled. The guy is probably going to be on another team in six years, and I'm not going to have this job anyway. What did babying Pedro Martinez accomplish for Felipe Alou:?

[Max Power]

The other day, Friday, Livan Hernandez' pitch count was near 100 in the 5th inning of a game v. the Yankees. Some announcers were ripping - - "he'll be done soon, he's thrown way too many pitches" - - well, late in the game, he was still there, pitching fine (but, he stopped trying to overpower hitters and was pitching more then - - - - Jim Kaat (in the booth) was in his glory (I'd like to take all those little pitch counters and throw them out - it will rust out before it will wear out, etc........ )

I do think we're going to wrong way with the smaller counts - - - - - for the younger pitchers, it all depends - - - Smed, you mentioned Wood (also being a big guy). But, Wood throws across his body and has terrible mechanics. He was a Tommy John waiting to happen - - no matter how many pitches - - (back on topic) Mark Prior has excellent mechanics, like a Clemens, Ryan, etc.

[poorme]

Originally posted by VNV Nation

On a more cynical note....granted, the Cubs are out of it this year, but the idea of saving young pitchers for the future...well, it doesn't make much sense to me. If I were a manager of a club and had a 19-year-old Doc Gooden, I would pretty much handle him the way he was handled. The guy is probably going to be on another team in six years, and I'm not going to have this job anyway. What did babying Pedro Martinez accomplish for Felipe Alou:?

That's exactly what I was thinking. There's no incentive to worry about a player's long term health. Especially none for the manager.

[KCBOOMER]

Originally posted by Max Power
He's a big boy like Clemens - - who also is a guy, in his prime, that was good for 120 a start.

As I recall Clemens had plenty of arm problems early in his career.