1993 Phillies - Juiced or Not?

Max Power · 06-04-2002, 02:00 PM

Until I saw the quote from Smoltz that many had suspected that the 1993 Phillies were using performance enhancers, I never thought about it.

But, now, thinking about the 1993 seasons of Daulton, Hollins, Dykstra, Incaviglia, Chamberlain and even Tommy Greene - - - and their breakdowns that followed, well, they sure do fit the profile, huh?

Thoughts?

poorme · 06-04-2002, 02:04 PM

certainly wouldn't surprise me, especially with daulton and dykstra. got any before and after pictures of their faces?

I don't see what the relevance is. Is the point that they were the first team to do it?

Max Power · 06-04-2002, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by poorme
I don't see what the relevance is. Is the point that they were the first team to do it?

Maybe more so the first to be fingered for it.

poorme · 06-04-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Max Power

Maybe more so the first to be fingered for it.

Hey, watch those hand jestures!

Until steroids are banned, I don't blame anyone for using them. You're playing at a disadvantage if you're not. Give them credit for ingenuity.

WiredTiger · 06-04-2002, 02:30 PM

It sounds like there were a lot of rumors swirling around those Phillies. Dykstra looked like a monster. I wouldn't doubt it if a bunch of guys from that team were on the juice.

Duque · 06-04-2002, 02:56 PM

What makes you think Greene? His career year, pitching-wise, or that he hit 2 HRs?

Max Power · 06-04-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duque
What makes you think Greene? His career year, pitching-wise, or that he hit 2 HRs?

Career year - - and his appearance.

TimmyB · 06-04-2002, 03:44 PM

I wouldn't be surprised. They fit the look.

Of course, a another question would be when did (or if) the A's (of Canseco, McGwire, etc.) begin livin' large.

Further... I still don't get this steroids-need-to-be-banned thing (not you, poorme -- the larger reaction in the media). They're illeagal already. (I will stop here as I have given this

in other threads.)

cubfan33 · 06-04-2002, 06:45 PM

Jeez, with the new non-profane atmosphere, I'll have to be very very careful about how I word this ...

I think some of the Phillies may have been juicing. I don't think Greene was and one look at Kruk will tell you he most likely wasn't. Dykstra's a maybe.

Darren Daulton ... ok, here goes ... Daulton married a Playboy Playmate/Hooters Girl. He was known in the clubhouse for ... ok, you know how they say steroid use can cause shrinkage of the "equipment"? Let's say Darren was known for the opposite.

BTW, there's a great piece today on Neyer where Malcolm Gladwell points directly at Barry Bonds and says that players are probably not using steroids - they're probably on to HGH and pure testosterone.

Let's also remember that unless they (or anyone) admits it, we'll never know who did or did not use steroids. Innocent until proven guilty and statute of limitations and all that lawyer stuff I don't know.

sweaver · 06-04-2002, 06:53 PM

It's not a new non-profane atmosphere, it's always been that way. Some of you are just newer to the forum.

I don't know if you can say someone wasn't using steroids because of anecdotal evidence against the frequent side effects. We don't know what he looked like before. And that Phillies team had the "rebel" attitude, and the subsequent injuries, that arouse suspicion.

Skip · 06-04-2002, 07:05 PM

All we need is a white picket fence to lean over and some laundry to make the gossip picture complete.

SmedIndy · 06-04-2002, 10:15 PM

Inky was always a beast.

Daulton was always a good player. He probably could have lasted a bit longer if it weren't for the knees.

Hollins was at his age 27 year and became injury prone. His 1992 was better.

I thought Dykstra just improved himself. The juice doesn't help you take walks, and 19 homers wasn't that much of a stretch from his career high (and he had a career high in ABs).

As far as the platoon guys (Chamberlain, Thompson) they were Ok, but they weren't THAT spectacular or eye openiong. It was also Chamberlain's age 27 year.

Tommy Greene was an injury waiting to happen anyway. Looking at his 1991, 1993 was not out of character at all.

In fact, I think they all just had the karma to have a career year in their natural progression of their career. Some were old, some got hurt, some just had that one year in 'em.

poorme · 06-05-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy

In fact, I think they all just had the karma to have a career year in their natural progression of their career. Some were old, some got hurt, some just had that one year in 'em.

When Dykstra came up he was pencil thin, probably 150 pounds. By the end of his injury plagued career, he was built like a little tank. Numerous people with inside knowledge have put steriod use at between 25% and 85%. All agree there is at least some steriod use. But just about any player we talk about, people say, "no, no, I don't think he was on steriods, he just <insert reason why his body mass increased dramatically and power surged>."

I'm not trying to be snottywith Smed. It just seems that there are people who would not believe anyone has ever used steriods. I just can't buy that.

06-05-2002, 09:41 AM

Larry Andersen talked about this one time...he said that clubhouse was like a Betty Ford clinic with all the "stuff" you could find

SmedIndy · 06-05-2002, 10:04 AM

I said:

"I thought..." which is not saying that "I know". It was a reflection looking back at the time.

And you look at their performance, they're not totally out of line with what they did in their careers if they would have been healthy. They had some age 27 years there too. It was serendipity, I think.

Again, Dykstra's ability of be healthy for that season and get on base spurred them. The juice didn't help with that.

06-04-2002, 02:00 PM	#1
Max Power NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: May 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 5,548	1993 Phillies - Juiced or Not? Until I saw the quote from Smoltz that many had suspected that the 1993 Phillies were using performance enhancers, I never thought about it. But, now, thinking about the 1993 seasons of Daulton, Hollins, Dykstra, Incaviglia, Chamberlain and even Tommy Greene - - - and their breakdowns that followed, well, they sure do fit the profile, huh? Thoughts? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator "They come and they go, Hobbs. They come and they go." That's why there's NetShrine.com

06-04-2002, 02:56 PM	#6
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	What makes you think Greene? His career year, pitching-wise, or that he hit 2 HRs? __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

06-04-2002, 06:45 PM	#9
cubfan33 NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 1,359	Daulton Jeez, with the new non-profane atmosphere, I'll have to be very very careful about how I word this ... I think some of the Phillies may have been juicing. I don't think Greene was and one look at Kruk will tell you he most likely wasn't. Dykstra's a maybe. Darren Daulton ... ok, here goes ... Daulton married a Playboy Playmate/Hooters Girl. He was known in the clubhouse for ... ok, you know how they say steroid use can cause shrinkage of the "equipment"? Let's say Darren was known for the opposite. BTW, there's a great piece today on Neyer where Malcolm Gladwell points directly at Barry Bonds and says that players are probably not using steroids - they're probably on to HGH and pure testosterone. Let's also remember that unless they (or anyone) admits it, we'll never know who did or did not use steroids. Innocent until proven guilty and statute of limitations and all that lawyer stuff I don't know. __________________ UTK available only at www.baseballprospectus.com "I was pulling for Pete and agreeing with (commissioner) Bud Selig that Pete should be eligible for the Hall of Fame," said Giles, now chairman of the Phillies. "Bud was close to making him eligible right after his meeting with Pete (November 2002). Right after that, Pete got into tax trouble (in California), and that delayed the process." - Phillies Chairman Bill Giles in the Dayton Daily News, January 25th, 2004.

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06-04-2002, 02:04 PM	#2
poorme Guest Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: washington dc Posts: 2,625	certainly wouldn't surprise me, especially with daulton and dykstra. got any before and after pictures of their faces? I don't see what the relevance is. Is the point that they were the first team to do it?

06-04-2002, 02:30 PM	#5
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	It sounds like there were a lot of rumors swirling around those Phillies. Dykstra looked like a monster. I wouldn't doubt it if a bunch of guys from that team were on the juice.

06-04-2002, 03:44 PM	#8
TimmyB NetShrine's Magic 8-Ball Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Where the cops speak slow and the air is nice Posts: 2,591	I wouldn't be surprised. They fit the look. Of course, a another question would be when did (or if) the A's (of Canseco, McGwire, etc.) begin livin' large. Further... I still don't get this steroids-need-to-be-banned thing (not you, poorme -- the larger reaction in the media). They're illeagal already. (I will stop here as I have given this in other threads.)

06-04-2002, 06:53 PM	#10
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	It's not a new non-profane atmosphere, it's always been that way. Some of you are just newer to the forum. I don't know if you can say someone wasn't using steroids because of anecdotal evidence against the frequent side effects. We don't know what he looked like before. And that Phillies team had the "rebel" attitude, and the subsequent injuries, that arouse suspicion.

06-04-2002, 07:05 PM	#11
Skip NetShrine Vagabond Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisville Posts: 7,866	All we need is a white picket fence to lean over and some laundry to make the gossip picture complete.

06-04-2002, 10:15 PM	#12
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Inky was always a beast. Daulton was always a good player. He probably could have lasted a bit longer if it weren't for the knees. Hollins was at his age 27 year and became injury prone. His 1992 was better. I thought Dykstra just improved himself. The juice doesn't help you take walks, and 19 homers wasn't that much of a stretch from his career high (and he had a career high in ABs). As far as the platoon guys (Chamberlain, Thompson) they were Ok, but they weren't THAT spectacular or eye openiong. It was also Chamberlain's age 27 year. Tommy Greene was an injury waiting to happen anyway. Looking at his 1991, 1993 was not out of character at all. In fact, I think they all just had the karma to have a career year in their natural progression of their career. Some were old, some got hurt, some just had that one year in 'em.

06-05-2002, 09:41 AM	#14
johnny Posts: n/a	Larry Andersen talked about this one time...he said that clubhouse was like a Betty Ford clinic with all the "stuff" you could find

06-05-2002, 10:04 AM	#15
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	I said: "I thought..." which is not saying that "I know". It was a reflection looking back at the time. And you look at their performance, they're not totally out of line with what they did in their careers if they would have been healthy. They had some age 27 years there too. It was serendipity, I think. Again, Dykstra's ability of be healthy for that season and get on base spurred them. The juice didn't help with that.

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