Hank Aaron's rank [Merged Threads]

[sweaver]

Well, since Duque brought it up......

Where does Aaron rank among the greatest of all time? Can you back up your opinion with some facts? Let's have a good rumble here....

[calexpat]

Ruth, Mays, Wagner, and probably Johnson are clearly above him, either because they stood/stand out from the pack more (Ruth, Wagner, Johnson) or they beat him head to head (Mays).

Then he'd have to duke it out with Williams, Bonds, Cobb, Mantle Schmidt, Gehrig, Grove, Clemens etc., and everyone would kill each other arguing about cross-era comparisons, pitcher vs. position player, peak vs. career value, how to measure defense, etc. none of which we are in the position to resolve here.

Personally, I'd end up with him in the top ten, because I tend to give a boost for playing post-WWII and to give credit for durability and consistency.

Which brings up the [obvious] point that the all-time numbers overlap violently with era-specific numbers. I understand the idea, but it gives people a cop-out doesn't it? .

Plus, isn't it a bit arbitrary to say you can compare, say, the Mays-Aaron era with the Bonds-Clemens era, but not with the Ruth-Gehrig era?

[poorme]

I'm waiting to vote on this one. I generally think he is an underrated ballplayer. Most people know him for breaking the home run record and for playing a long time. Plus, a lot of people saw him in the twilight of his career. From the things I've read he was an outstanding player in all aspects of the game. I guess when someone pulls out the win shares numbers I'll go with that.

[nightal]

I happen to think the opposite about Aaron. I believe he ranks 11-20 behind the usual suspects. He won only 1 MVP, which no matter what anyone in 2002 thinks, does refect the on the impressions he made on "50s and 60s sportswriters.
In mid-career he switched to a hitters park and was, as I recall, very healthy during his career and had no military service which enabled him to accumulate his gaudy stats on a ton of plate appearances.
But under a severe sabermetric microscope, his stats are not as spectacular as one might think.
Come get me guys!!

[SmedIndy]

But his peak was in County Stadium, and that was a pitcher's park, so his changing parks in mid-stream argument doesn't hold water.

And I really can't take anything away from someone who was healthy and didn't have any interruptions in his career. It's like discounting Ripken because he played in every game....

[WiredTiger]

Aaron was very good for a very long time. I guess it all comes down to whether you are a fan of peak performance or longevity.

[nightal]

And another thing about Aaron, he is the most bitter ex-player I've ever heard interviewed.
This has always rubbed me the wrong way. Please spare me the usual 1974 stuff, others have had to deal with the same things and somehow remained, at least, positive about their baseball past.
I read something one time about how he thought he was superior to Mays in every aspect of the game. You could just feel the bitterness in his voice, even in print.
Ruth, Williams, Wagner, Johnson, Mantle, Musial, Grove, Hornsby, Gehrig,Mays, Bonds, Foxx, and Alexander rank ahead of him in my opinion.

[SmedIndy]

Obviously you never had direct death threats. And the Braves have treated him with some contempt afterwards. He has every right to be bitter.

I can't rate Hornsby better than him, for reasons explained elsewhere. Nor Alexander. And Mantle has those injuries.

[nightal]

I never compared myself to Aaron, It would not be fair to him, ha ha. I was comparing other players that, in your words, had death threats etc. and dealt with predudices. Also, I did say stuff the 1974 opinions, they have been rehashed forever.

[Slippery Pedro]

RUNS CREATED/GAME             DIFF  PLAYER LEAGUE
1    Babe Ruth                16.28   24.23   7.94
2    Ty Cobb                   8.79   15.59   6.80
3    Stan Musial               8.20   15.27   7.07
4    Tris Speaker              7.54   14.47   6.93
5    Mel Ott                   7.40   14.82   7.43
6    Cap Anson                 6.75   15.65   8.90
7    Honus Wagner              6.50   13.29   6.79
8    Willie Mays               5.72   12.37   6.64
9    Frank Robinson            5.56   11.94   6.38
10   Nap Lajoie                5.48   12.21   6.73
11   Hank Aaron                4.99   11.53   6.53

the above is based on 10,000 PA. If you more the PA down to 7500, Hank slides all the way down to #28.

I disagree with you, nightal. Sure he only won 1 MVP, but he led the NL in HR and RBI 4 years each over a 10 year span, none during the Korean War years (his first year of each is 57). The fact that he was still effective at age 40 while passing Babe Ruth in all-time home runs (.268, 20, 90 over 112 games) is a testament to his durability and perserverance. And did he quit when he beat the record? No. He played for 2 more seasons. His career OPS is .929!!! The league average during the time he played was .722. He was a giant throughout his career. I voted top 5 post war, but I could easily be convinced to say 3-5 and def 6-10.

Oh and he also has the most RBIs, total bases and extra base hits ever.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by nightal
I never compared myself to Aaron, It would not be fair to him, ha ha. I was comparing other players that, in your words, had death threats etc. and dealt with predudices. Also, I did say stuff the 1974 opinions, they have been rehashed forever.

So they've been rehashed? It doesn't diminish them one iota. I don't think anyone sent verifiable death threats against Lou Gehrig.

Most of the other guys are real SOBs too, so don't hold it against Aaron. I mean, I wouldn't want to cross Hornsby or Grove, and Pete Alexander was a real sorry case. Personality should not enter this discussion at all.

Runs created based on an at-bat plateau is going to be biased against Aaron because he has the 2nd most trips to the plate of all-time.

It takes good conditioning, some talent, some luck and a whole lot of determination to get to the plate 12000+ times. The man deserves credit for that much.

I suppose the fact that he had his hands on the bat the wrong way for some of his professional career holds no sway.

[wyvern37]

I think there is a decent argument that Hank Aaron is under-rated! For one thing, he is just about identical to Mays in hitting AND he had more outstanding years than Mays did. Mays obviously has a huge edge in fielding, but by all accounts, Aaron was an exceptional rightfielder.

Since someone complained about "non-traditional stats", here are the "traditional" ones:
Hank Aaron .305/.374/.555
Willie Mays .302/.384/.557

They are virtually identical. So if Mays is in the top 10 (which he obviously is), then Aaron cannot be too far behind. Bill James' lists Aaron as the 10th best [major league] player in his Win Shares book and he has the fourth highest Win Share total of all-time (one win share ahead of Mays.)

And by the way, criticizing him for never hitting 50 homers has to be a joke.

Karim

[nightal]

Last post on this one for me:

1. Can anyone say they would take Aaron ahead of Mays or Williams? or Bonds for that matter. (post WW2 players) I personally would even take Musial.
2. If personality is taken out of it Smed what is the knock on Hornsby?, His "Bill James perceived lack of defense"?