Disposing Of Saves

SmedIndy · 03-28-2002, 12:44 PM

Instead of saves, why not just lump saves and holds together into "held leads" and convert blown saves into "blown leads"?

The situations should be thus:

1. The pitcher must enter in the seventh inning or later with not more than a three run lead to get credit with a held lead.

2. When the pitcher leaves the game, and that lead is still on the scoreboard, he gets credit for a held lead. However, if a runner he leaves on bases scores, and that run ties the game, then he does not get credit for a held lead.

3. A pitcher must retire at least one batter to get a held lead.

4. If a pitcher allows the tying run to score in any situation, he gets credit for a blown lead.

Too many times, mediocre relievers get big contracts because they are lucky and get saves. This recognizes the importance of middle relievers and set-up guys and may stop some managers from over-managing and using pitchers contra to what the situation really needs.

I wonder if some of our esteemed guests could float this suggestion in a column. It was a newspaperman that started saves.

Fritz Buelow · 03-28-2002, 01:06 PM

I cannot believe you would even mention the word "HOLDS" - - the ulimate BS stat.

Everyone in LaRussa's pen would have 45 "held leads" at the end of the season under your format. Think the owners want that at the table when banging out a contract with a player?

Boras would have a field day.

WiredTiger · 03-28-2002, 01:13 PM

I think the saves stat has it's place. But by no means should it be the ultimate indication of a closers worth.

SmedIndy · 03-28-2002, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
I cannot believe you would even mention the word "HOLDS" - - the ulimate BS stat.

Everyone in LaRussa's pen would have 45 "held leads" at the end of the season under your format. Think the owners want that at the table when banging out a contract with a player?

Boras would have a field day.

How else, currently, can you measure the importance of middle relievers? We've argued this before. If you add the stipulation that pitchers must retire a batter to get a hold then it's worthy.

Plus, they have blown saves charged to them. So idiot sportwriters will complain that a middle guy has only four saves but has five blown saves, and says he "can't close". The hell he can't. He could have held 25 other leads.

This way managers could use pitchers when it counted, and not arbitrarily in the 9th of an 8-5 game.

SmedIndy · 03-28-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WiredTiger
I think the saves stat has it's place. But by no means should it be the ultimate indication of a closers worth.

You mean the worth of your desingated ninth-inning pitcher?

Fritz Buelow · 03-28-2002, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
How else, currently, can you measure the importance of middle relievers?

Opponent's OPS v. the league average.

SmedIndy · 03-28-2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow

Opponent's OPS v. the league average.

Well, use that for your designated ninth-inning pitchers as well and remove saves.

Fritz Buelow · 03-28-2002, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Well, use that for your designated ninth-inning pitchers as well and remove saves.

Works for me!

Saves = manager's discretion. That's how they should be considered. Some day, some way, the world will catch on.

gyb13 · 03-28-2002, 02:07 PM

What do you think of some of the other reliever-evaluation tools, such as ARP, APR, BRS, etc?

SmedIndy · 03-28-2002, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gyb13
What do you think of some of the other reliever-evaluation tools, such as ARP, APR, BRS, etc?

As long as they measure a relievers ability and not count, fine by me. Though I think the acronyms need help!

Fritz Buelow · 03-28-2002, 02:36 PM

From: www.netshrine.com/statglossary.html :

Adjusted Pitching Runs [APR]

The formula is: (Innings Pitched divided by 9) x (League ERA - ERA)

This statistic used to measure the number of runs a pitcher prevents from scoring compared to the league's average pitcher in a neutral park in the same amount of innings.

This one works for me.

Standed Baseruners? Hmmm. Like to see it as a % rather than a hard number.

qtlaw · 03-28-2002, 04:31 PM

Get rid of the 9th Inning, nobody on, 3 run lead save. Although outs are hard to get, it seems like the cheapest stat around. Give up a 2 run bomb, get the last out, era of 18, get a save. That does not make sense.

gyb13 · 03-28-2002, 04:35 PM

welcome qtlaw!
the whole concept of a save has really inflated the market for relief pitchers. i wish (and i'm sure so do the owners) that it had never been incorporated into daily use...

KCBOOMER · 03-28-2002, 04:53 PM

How did we ever finish games without "closers"?

Fritz Buelow · 03-28-2002, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gyb13
welcome qtlaw!

Ditto.

Boomer - dunno? Maybe the mistake was when we started calling them "closers" instead of "firemen"?

03-28-2002, 12:44 PM	#1
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Disposing Of Saves Instead of saves, why not just lump saves and holds together into "held leads" and convert blown saves into "blown leads"? The situations should be thus: 1. The pitcher must enter in the seventh inning or later with not more than a three run lead to get credit with a held lead. 2. When the pitcher leaves the game, and that lead is still on the scoreboard, he gets credit for a held lead. However, if a runner he leaves on bases scores, and that run ties the game, then he does not get credit for a held lead. 3. A pitcher must retire at least one batter to get a held lead. 4. If a pitcher allows the tying run to score in any situation, he gets credit for a blown lead. Too many times, mediocre relievers get big contracts because they are lucky and get saves. This recognizes the importance of middle relievers and set-up guys and may stop some managers from over-managing and using pitchers contra to what the situation really needs. I wonder if some of our esteemed guests could float this suggestion in a column. It was a newspaperman that started saves.

03-28-2002, 01:06 PM	#2
Fritz Buelow NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 1,020	I cannot believe you would even mention the word "HOLDS" - - the ulimate BS stat. Everyone in LaRussa's pen would have 45 "held leads" at the end of the season under your format. Think the owners want that at the table when banging out a contract with a player? Boras would have a field day. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

03-28-2002, 02:07 PM	#9
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	What do you think of some of the other reliever-evaluation tools, such as ARP, APR, BRS, etc? __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

03-28-2002, 02:36 PM	#11
Fritz Buelow NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 1,020	From: www.netshrine.com/statglossary.html : Adjusted Pitching Runs [APR] The formula is: (Innings Pitched divided by 9) x (League ERA - ERA) This statistic used to measure the number of runs a pitcher prevents from scoring compared to the league's average pitcher in a neutral park in the same amount of innings. This one works for me. Standed Baseruners? Hmmm. Like to see it as a % rather than a hard number. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

03-28-2002, 04:31 PM	#12
qtlaw Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: El Cerrito, CA Posts: 668	Get Rid of 9th Inning Saves Get rid of the 9th Inning, nobody on, 3 run lead save. Although outs are hard to get, it seems like the cheapest stat around. Give up a 2 run bomb, get the last out, era of 18, get a save. That does not make sense.

03-28-2002, 01:13 PM	#3
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	I think the saves stat has it's place. But by no means should it be the ultimate indication of a closers worth.

03-28-2002, 04:35 PM	#13
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	welcome qtlaw! the whole concept of a save has really inflated the market for relief pitchers. i wish (and i'm sure so do the owners) that it had never been incorporated into daily use... __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

03-28-2002, 04:53 PM	#14
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	How did we ever finish games without "closers"? __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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