Bobby Bonds & other BBI news

[nyy26wc]

Bobby Bonds's Baseball Immortals area has been created and is located at http://www.baseballimmortals.net/imm...by_bonds.shtml

His plaque says

BOBBY BONDS
GIANTS 1968-81


HAD 7 YEARS WITH 100+ RC AND 3 MORE WITH 93+, WHILE PLAYING DURING A RELATIVELY LOW OFFENSIVE ERA. RANKED IN THE TOP 5 IN THE MAJORS IN 17 CATEGORIES AND TOP 10 IN 24 DURING 1970S, INCLUDING TIED FOR THE LEAD IN EBH, 3RD IN RC, 4TH IN HR, 5TH IN SLG, 7TH IN OPS & 8TH IN RCAA. LED RF IN 9 CATEGORIES DURING THE DECADE. HIS 613 RUNS, FROM 1969-73, WERE TIED FOR THE MOST IN THE NL OVER ANY 5 YEAR PERIOD OVER A 65 YEAR SPAN. SHARES RECORD WITH 5 30-30 SEASONS.

The following players have had some new material added to their areas--

Pete Rose
http://www.baseballimmortals.net/imm...ete_rose.shtml

Willie Stargell
http://www.baseballimmortals.net/imm...stargell.shtml

Ron Santo
http://www.baseballimmortals.net/imm...on_santo.shtml

The following players have been evicted--Graig Nettles, Lou Brock and Dave Kingman.

[Fritz Buelow]

No mention of having baseball's best offspring?

[Skip]

Kingman and Nettles I expected. Brock I did not.

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by Skip
Nettles I expected.

Lee - do you really hate glove men that much?

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by Skip
Kingman and Nettles I expected. Brock I did not.

The case against Brock is overwhelming.

The evidence against Lou Brock--

227 RCAA: He's not in the top 100 & not even the top 200. That ties him with John Kruk and Lenny Dykstra for 237th.

62 RCAP: tied for 595th, with the likes of Ed Lennox, Jesse Barfield, Mike Macfarlane, Andy Pafko and Kip Selbach, and is more than 100 places behind players like Phil Bradley, Don Slaught and Terry Steinbach

He ranked only 38th over the course of his career in RCAA and wasn't even in the top 100 in RCAP (he was tied for 127th, with John Rosenboro, just behind players like Dave Cash and Bud Harrelson)

Where is he in the top 20 for the majors in OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, RC, RC/G & OWP for the 1960s & 1970s: 19th in OWP in the 1960s, 20th in OBA for the 1970s & nowhere for the rest of them

Where is he in the top 20 in the NL in RCAA, RCAP, for either the 1960s or the 1970s: 19th in RCAA during the '60s, nowhere for everything else

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for the majors during the 1960s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for the NL during the 1960s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for LFs during the 1960s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for the majors during the 1970s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for the NL during the 1970s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 20 for single season OBA, SLG, OPS, RCAA, RCAP, OWP or RC/G for LFs during the 1970s: 0 apiece

Number of times he was in the top 10 in the NL in outs: 11
Number of times he played 10+ games and avoided finishing in the top 10 in outs: 7 (8 for those who absolutely insist on including his 4 game cup of coffee season in 1961)

Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in RCAA: only 2

Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in RCAP: 2
Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in Worst RCAP: 3

Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in OPS: 0
Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in Worst OPS: 1

Number of times he was in the top 10 in the league in OBA: just 1

His .753 career OPS was .038 above his league average, which ranks his 384th among players with 5000+ PA

His .753 career OPS was .000 above his positional average of .753 (when projected out to more decimal places's Brock's .753 is higher than the position's .753), which ranks him 555th among players with 5000+ PA. Even his former teammate Julian Javier managed to have a whopping +.001 figure.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow


Lee - do you really hate glove men that much?

I don't hate glove men as much as I hate inflated reputations. It just so happens that many glove men have them.

[Fritz Buelow]

Originally posted by nyy26wc
I don't hate glove men as much as I hate inflated reputations. It just so happens that many glove men have them.

I would agree that Nettles was not one of baseball's immortals - - but, compared to other 3Bs, he's gotta be (counting hitting and fielding) in the top 10 all time, no?


On Brock - -so, is he the Bizzaro Darrell Evans?

[KCBOOMER]

Agree on Kingman and Nettles. Not sure on Brock. Is it his position (LF) that hurts him the most? Seems like being 38th on the all-time runs scored list is worth something.

On the HoF Standards and Monitor he is about the mid-point for an HoFer. He did get 3000+ hits and is second all-time in steals. I grant you these are raw numbers. On the other hand when he was playing the only time you feared him was when he was on first base and second was open.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
On the HoF Standards and Monitor he is about the mid-point for an HoFer.

The HOF Standards and Monitor tell us nothing about who actually belongs.

All those methods do is take a look at who actually is in the HOF, then assumes their credentials are the correct ones and compares players to that credentials.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow


I would agree that Nettles was not one of baseball's immortals - - but, compared to other 3Bs, he's gotta be (counting hitting and fielding) in the top 10 all time, no?

Nettles is only tied for 41st among 3B in RCAA.

You have to both give him credit for a lot of runs (202 to be exact) for defensive credit, as well as assume everyone else gets no defensive credit just to get Nettles into a top 10 RCAA + fielding chart.

[Fritz Buelow]

Betcha many of the top 40 are guys like Killer who should not have been on 3B. Just guessing - without looking.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
Betcha many of the top 40 are guys like Killer who should not have been on 3B. Just guessing - without looking.

That list was generated by classifying players where they played the most in their careers and then using their whole careers.

Under that criteria, Killebrew is classified as a 1B.

[nyy26wc]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Not sure on Brock. Is it his position (LF) that hurts him the most?

Unlike many sabermetricians (probably even a big majority of them), I believe that players should mostly be compared to the overall league average, instead of just their positions.

There are cases where I'll adjust my assessment of a player based on his position, but that's not my norm.

In Brock's case, his position hurt him in the sense that having so many of his peers be ahead of him, when only counting a subset of the whole, that's not a good sign for how a player fares when compared to the whole. But, I would have reached the same conclusion that he didn't belong, even without considering any evidence relating to his position.