Alou Bad Manager?

TGwynn19 · 03-11-2002, 11:30 PM

In the Little signing thread it was stated that Alou was a bad manager. Two points were raised 1) that since 1997 the Expos had the worst OBP in the majors and 2) it was a direct result of Alou's not putting an emphasis on getting on base because when he was a player Alou was terrible at getting on base.

To the first point: I think that there is a huge reason why the Expos have been bad, they got rid of a huge amount of talent in the mid-80's. Just to look at the results and blame Alou, to me, does Alou a great disservice. Noone could have competed with the hand that Alou was dealt in the late 90's.

To the second point: If a team's success can be directly related to the quality of ballplayer the manager was, then Montreal is going to win the flag by 12 games. Frank Robinson was a hell of a lot better ballplayer than any manager in the NL East.

Fritz Buelow · 03-11-2002, 11:37 PM

If you use the theory that a manager means maybe only a handful of games in the win-loss column, then, to me, the only way a manager could be bad would be to blow something - - - like Mauch did.

Alou never blew a lead. Doesn't make him good - or bad - - just average, I guess?

TGwynn19 · 03-11-2002, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
If you use the theory that a manager means maybe only a handful of games in the win-loss column, then, to me, the only way a manager could be bad would be to blow something - - - like Mauch did.

Alou never blew a lead. Doesn't make him good - or bad - - just average, I guess?

I guess what really got me thinking was, that since Alou did not get on base as a player then as a manager he does not prioritize it. That makes no sense to me.

Duque · 03-12-2002, 12:07 AM

I think that some guys who end up being good managers - John McGraw, for instance, and Miller Huggins - were guys that did walk a lot. That probably helps, but there are a lot of great managers who didn't walk a lot - Sparky Anderson, Leo Durocher, even Joe Torre was not much of a walker. Same is true for GMs - I don't remember guys like Billy Beane or Gene Michael being very disciplined hitters - but they really emphasize it now.

pathogan · 03-12-2002, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
If you use the theory that a manager means maybe only a handful of games in the win-loss column, then, to me, the only way a manager could be bad would be to blow something - - - like Mauch did.

Alou never blew a lead. Doesn't make him good - or bad - - just average, I guess?

My belief[as I have stated ad nauseum} a great manager means great players...who am i to disagree with simon bar sinister, anyway

SmedIndy · 03-12-2002, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Buelow
If you use the theory that a manager means maybe only a handful of games in the win-loss column, then, to me, the only way a manager could be bad would be to blow something - - - like Mauch did.

Alou never blew a lead. Doesn't make him good - or bad - - just average, I guess?

I'd say Mauch got a bad rap for that.

As for Alou, I think he's good with younger players, and commands respect, but I don't know about him going into Boston.

KCBOOMER · 03-12-2002, 09:34 AM

I believe Alou to be a good manager. He is widely respected by the players and when you consider that his English is only so-so that is quite an achievement. We might want to remember that in 1994 he had the best team in baseball until everybody lost their minds.

Mauch is a world class overmanager. He just wears his own team out with his constant lineup juggling, manuevering, bunting, and pitching changes. He makes it clear to his team that if they win it is because of his managing not their playing.

Fritz Buelow · 03-12-2002, 10:26 AM

To Pat's point - -

See Joe Torre, Mets/Braves/Cards v. Joe Torre, Yankees.
Same guy.
Bad MGR - Great MGR.

Simon says...........agree with Pat!

gyb13 · 03-12-2002, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pathogan
My belief[as I have stated ad nauseum} a great manager means great players...

Do you mean that a great manager makes great players out of his (non-great) players?
Or that those considered to be great managers are those who were fortunate to have great players play for them?

KCBOOMER · 03-12-2002, 11:31 AM

I think what we are driving at about great managers is that you have to have some horses or it doesn't matter how good you are. Much like a good jockey can make a good horse better you still have to have a good horse.

Eart Weaver is a great example of this. When he had great players his platooning schemes and playing for the three run homer looked brilliant. When he came out of retirement and took over a collection of stumblebums he looked like just another retread manager.

Maybe Earl is a good example of what he did as player isn't how he managed. He never hit a ML home run in his life but he sure managed for them.

Fuzzy Bear · 03-12-2002, 01:03 PM

The Expos played to their talent level while Alou managed. He's not bad, but I question whether or not he is a great manager.

There are too many examples of managers who directly, or through their hitting coaches, run their teams into the ground by destroying the concept of plate discipline in a hitter. Alou's record bears that out.

A hitter that will think at the plate and show discipline will likely show discipline in other areas of his game. He will be more likely to hit the cutoff man than to show off his cannon and throw wild. He will have a higher stolen base pct. He will make fewer mistakes on the basepaths due to stupid aggression.

Actually, the last statement of mine is a belief. I haven't fully tested it out, yet, but I believe it to be true. A patient hitter is a smarter hitter. A ballplayer using his brain becomes a smarter ballplayer. Is it true? Check it out; I'll bet it is.

Fritz Buelow · 03-12-2002, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
A hitter that will think at the plate and show discipline will likely show discipline in other areas of his game. He will be more likely to hit the cutoff man than to show off his cannon and throw wild. He will have a higher stolen base pct. He will make fewer mistakes on the basepaths due to stupid aggression.

Actually, the last statement of mine is a belief. I haven't fully tested it out, yet, but I believe it to be true. A patient hitter is a smarter hitter. A ballplayer using his brain becomes a smarter ballplayer. Is it true? Check it out; I'll bet it is.

Like Frank Thomas?

TGwynn19 · 03-12-2002, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fuzzy Bear
The Expos played to their talent level while Alou managed. He's not bad, but I question whether or not he is a great manager.

There are too many examples of managers who directly, or through their hitting coaches, run their teams into the ground by destroying the concept of plate discipline in a hitter. Alou's record bears that out.

What Alou's record bears out is that yes the Expos OBP went down in the late 90's. Their talent level fell even farther. If you want to lay that at Alou's feet so be it. I think it is not right.

sweaver · 03-12-2002, 05:33 PM

Every manager has strengths and weaknesses. Alou's strengths are commanding respect ( a manager's #1 job), running a pitching staff, and a willingness to use young players.

His biggest weakness is discouraging taking pitches. If that is his worst point, he can still be a good manager.

On balance, I would call Alou a good manager.

03-11-2002, 11:37 PM	#2
Fritz Buelow NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 1,020	If you use the theory that a manager means maybe only a handful of games in the win-loss column, then, to me, the only way a manager could be bad would be to blow something - - - like Mauch did. Alou never blew a lead. Doesn't make him good - or bad - - just average, I guess? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

03-12-2002, 12:07 AM	#4
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	I think that some guys who end up being good managers - John McGraw, for instance, and Miller Huggins - were guys that did walk a lot. That probably helps, but there are a lot of great managers who didn't walk a lot - Sparky Anderson, Leo Durocher, even Joe Torre was not much of a walker. Same is true for GMs - I don't remember guys like Billy Beane or Gene Michael being very disciplined hitters - but they really emphasize it now. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

03-12-2002, 09:34 AM	#7
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	I believe Alou to be a good manager. He is widely respected by the players and when you consider that his English is only so-so that is quite an achievement. We might want to remember that in 1994 he had the best team in baseball until everybody lost their minds. Mauch is a world class overmanager. He just wears his own team out with his constant lineup juggling, manuevering, bunting, and pitching changes. He makes it clear to his team that if they win it is because of his managing not their playing. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

03-12-2002, 10:26 AM	#8
Fritz Buelow NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 1,020	To Pat's point - - See Joe Torre, Mets/Braves/Cards v. Joe Torre, Yankees. Same guy. Bad MGR - Great MGR. Simon says...........agree with Pat! __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

03-12-2002, 11:31 AM	#10
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	I think what we are driving at about great managers is that you have to have some horses or it doesn't matter how good you are. Much like a good jockey can make a good horse better you still have to have a good horse. Eart Weaver is a great example of this. When he had great players his platooning schemes and playing for the three run homer looked brilliant. When he came out of retirement and took over a collection of stumblebums he looked like just another retread manager. Maybe Earl is a good example of what he did as player isn't how he managed. He never hit a ML home run in his life but he sure managed for them. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

03-11-2002, 11:30 PM	#1
TGwynn19 Guest Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,087	Alou Bad Manager? In the Little signing thread it was stated that Alou was a bad manager. Two points were raised 1) that since 1997 the Expos had the worst OBP in the majors and 2) it was a direct result of Alou's not putting an emphasis on getting on base because when he was a player Alou was terrible at getting on base. To the first point: I think that there is a huge reason why the Expos have been bad, they got rid of a huge amount of talent in the mid-80's. Just to look at the results and blame Alou, to me, does Alou a great disservice. Noone could have competed with the hand that Alou was dealt in the late 90's. To the second point: If a team's success can be directly related to the quality of ballplayer the manager was, then Montreal is going to win the flag by 12 games. Frank Robinson was a hell of a lot better ballplayer than any manager in the NL East.

03-12-2002, 01:03 PM	#11
Fuzzy Bear NetShrine's Evangelist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Living by faith, and not by sight! Posts: 2,194	The Expos played to their talent level while Alou managed. He's not bad, but I question whether or not he is a great manager. There are too many examples of managers who directly, or through their hitting coaches, run their teams into the ground by destroying the concept of plate discipline in a hitter. Alou's record bears that out. A hitter that will think at the plate and show discipline will likely show discipline in other areas of his game. He will be more likely to hit the cutoff man than to show off his cannon and throw wild. He will have a higher stolen base pct. He will make fewer mistakes on the basepaths due to stupid aggression. Actually, the last statement of mine is a belief. I haven't fully tested it out, yet, but I believe it to be true. A patient hitter is a smarter hitter. A ballplayer using his brain becomes a smarter ballplayer. Is it true? Check it out; I'll bet it is.

03-12-2002, 05:33 PM	#14
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Every manager has strengths and weaknesses. Alou's strengths are commanding respect ( a manager's #1 job), running a pitching staff, and a willingness to use young players. His biggest weakness is discouraging taking pitches. If that is his worst point, he can still be a good manager. On balance, I would call Alou a good manager.

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