Who're the Best Spares of All-Time? (NDF Contest - Spare Hitters/Pitchers)

[Duque]

If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252

In the interests of getting this wrapped up by the time Opening Day comes around, we'll do two categories here.

This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as Spare Hitters and Pitchers. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Thursday, 7 March 2002.

Here are the Spare Hitters:

Mexicani Blue - Howard Johnson
hmrsf - Todd Helton
b-ball-lunachik - Jim Thome
redsox617 - Vladimir Guerrero
ChrisCary - Elmer Flick
Throwback - Hack Wilson
Duque - Earl Averill
Yogi#8Fan - Juan Gonzalez
Golden Bear - Cap Anson
Buzz Buzzard - Fred Lynn
pjl7 - Kirby Puckett
nyy26wc - Albert Belle
Xanadu Dragon - Billy Williams

And the Spare Pitchers:

Mexicani Blue - Nolan Ryan
hmrsf - Jim Palmer
b-ball-lunachik - Carl Hubbell
redsox617 - Sandy Koufax
ChrisCary - Ron Guidry
Throwback - Dizzy Dean
Duque - Steve Carlton
Yogi#8Fan - Bob Gibson
Golden Bear - Warren Spahn
Buzz Buzzard - Pedro Martinez
pjl7 - Bob Feller
nyy26wc - Randy Johnson
Xanadu Dragon - Juan Marichal

[hmrsf]

? Duque do we combind both spares and make a vote ie: Palmer and Helton, or do we do 2 separte votes one for PH one for SP?

[Duque]

Should have explained that better - yeah, separate votes for each, though all due at the same time.

[hmrsf]

Todd Helton has the 12th highest runs created per 27
outs mark in major league history. Now granted,
playing in Coors Field is a terrific help. But he is
by no means the only player in big league history to
have an advantageous ballpark. The way this guy hits
is just phenomenal!

In fact for players playing since 1900, his runs
created per game mark is number 5. The only players
ahead of him are Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig,
and Jimmie Foxx!! This is for players with at least
2000 career at bats.

Helton's career slugging percentage is #4 on the
all-time list. Only Ruth, Williams, and Gehrig are
ahead of him. And his batting average is not too
slouchy either: He ranks #24 all-time and only Ted
Williams and Tony Gwynn are higher than him in the
last 50 years.

I checked the home and road numbers for Helton and
they indicate he is a solid hitter on the road but a
bonified immortal at home. At home, he is a
combination of Babe Ruth with a career slugging
average of .705 and Ty Cobb, career batting average of
.375! Yes, it would be great if he hit as well on the
road but maybe he will: He is only 27 years old!

Helton is the only player in history to have more than
100 extra base hits in consecutive seasons. He is also
one of a handful of players to have had consecutive
seasons with more than 400 total bases.

Helton is hitting for power and average and his run
production numbers bear it out. He has driven in more
than 145 runs in consecutive seasons while scoring
more than 130 runs in consecutive seasons. Yes, this
is a hitter's era but the numbers keep adding up to
this guy being really special. Look at this list of
the all-time top 15 in On base average plus slugging
average:

PS OPS AB
1 Babe Ruth 1.164 8399
2 Ted Williams 1.115 7706
3 Lou Gehrig 1.080 8001
4 Todd Helton 1.038 2368
5 Jimmie Foxx 1.038 8134
6 Hank Greenberg 1.017 5193
7 Frank Thomas 1.015 5542
8 Rogers Hornsby 1.010 8173
9 Barry Bonds 1.003 7932
10 Manny Ramirez 1.000 3999
11 Mark McGwire .982 6187
12 Mickey Mantle .977 8102
13 Joe DiMaggio .977 6821
14 Stan Musial .976 10972
15 Mike Piazza .970 4638

I know that someone of you might argue that he is so
young but that's just the thing: He is so young! The
possiblity that he is going to put up numbers that are
beyond fantastic just increases with each season.

[hmrsf]

NATIONAL LEAGUE
CAREER
AT BATS >= 2000

SLG SLG AB
1 Todd Helton .622 2368
2 Vladimir Guerrero .587 2755
3 Barry Bonds .585 7932
4 Mike Piazza .579 4638
5 Rogers Hornsby .578 8056

Helton has the highest slugging average in NL history
for any player with at least 2000 at bats. He doesn't
just lead, he leads by 35 points.

[hmrsf]

Of the 18 pitchers who won 20+ games 8x, only 3 played in the AL, and only Jim Palmer began his career after WWII. Palmer strung together those 20 wins from 1970-1978 and averaging 288 innings per season.

The O's won 7 titles during Palmers 19 year tenure. He was the youngest pitcher to ever throw a SHO during a wold series game and the only pitcher to to win a world series game in 3 decades.

3x Cy Young winner and 6x all star.

Palmer tossed a no-hitter in 1969.

Palmers 53 career SHO tie him with Perry for 16th place all time.

.638 W-L% ranks him 23rd.

HOF 1990.

[b-ball-lunachik]

A case for "King" Carl Hubbell...

-- One of Netshrine's Apicals (love that term from the Lively Ball Era -- touted as the best pitcher of the 30s after Lefty Grove

--Over 16 yr career, 253-154 for a .622 WP with a 2.98 ERA, including 5 consecutive seasons of 20+ wins

-- For seven seasons, he had the lowest opponent OBP in the league

-- Excellent control pitcher -- SO/BB ratio was higher than 2:1 and was in the top 10 in BB given up per nine innings in 11 seasons

-- In 6 WS games, 4-2 with a 1.79 ERA, including the '33 Series in which he pitched 20 consecutive innings without allowing an earned run.

-- Tossed no-hitter on 5/8/29, and in '33 was virtually unhittable from 7/13 to 8/1 recording 46 1/3 consecutive scoreless innings (topped only by Hershiser and Drysdale in the NL in the 20th century)

-- 9-time All Star including 1934 appearance in which he struck out Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Simmons and Cronin in succession

-- Top 10 in MVP Voting 5 times

-- Won MVP in 1933 and 1936

-- 58th Best player of all time per Total Baseball

Hubbell was a man who just loved baseball...after his long pitching career, went on to a 30-year career as a scout and executive....Bill James saw him hanging around the batting cages in his 80s during spring training...also had a great nickname -- "the Meal Ticket" ...gotta love a good nickname!!

[Golden Bear]

I'm going to humbly submit I've got the best candidate in both categories here.

Warren Spahn: Most of you seem to agree with me, so I won't drag this out. What was Spahn like? Imagine Greg Maddux. Now imagine him lefthanded. Now imagine him better -- more innings, more K's, more longevity, more dominance.

Please don't take this as a slight of Greg Maddux; it's not, not at all. Spahn is simply that good. And he missed some years to WWII -- not barnstorming in exhibition games either; Spahn was a decorated hero at the Battle of the Bulge.

Cap Anson: I'll readily concede that 19th century guys are exceedingly hard to judge. But you can pretty confidently compare them to each other, at least.

Anson was simply the best player of his time, of his era. Can you say that about any of the other guys on the list?

Maybe you take issue with Anson being the best. Fine. But you've got to concede he's in the top 3-5 players, maybe top 10 if you're a real toughie. Are any of these other guys top 3, top 5, top 10 of their eras (say a 25 year period). Top 10 maybe, but it's a stretch; probably not.

Anson has more runs scored than anyone on this list. More hits. More RBI. A higher BA. More at-bats. More doubles. More triples. He's 2nd in total bases to Billy Williams, who has 25 more. And this is with only 97 career HR...which isn't bad considering that Anson played in a bunch of parks with no fences.
In another era, Anson would have easily hit his share of round-trippers. (He was built like Reggie Jackson.)

[Golden Bear]

I just did my votes, and the pitchers were really something else. What an amazing collection of superstars...it's awesome when you consider that this is our 2nd string.

(I still think Spahn is the best, but the others are awfully, awfully good.)

It may be that a lot of our first stringers are the Cy Youngs, Walter Johnsons, Mathewsons, Alexanders, Keefes -- guys who, while undeniably good, are so remote in time that it's quite a bit harder to appreciate what they did.

Most of these spare guys, on the other hand, are living and their exploits are on videotape and took place in the more-or-less modern form of the game, so we know in our guts how terrific they really were.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
I just did my votes, and the pitchers were really something else. What an amazing collection of superstars...it's awesome when you consider that this is our 2nd string.

I hear ya GB....I am surprised that Koufax scored so low on so many people's ballots...I was considering taking him as my first pitcher...I'm not asking this to point fingers at voting or anything of the kind, but more for educational purposes (I've learned a ton during this game)...why did he score so low on so many ballots? I know his career was shortened because of injury but he did have 12 years in the league and while he was before my time, I've heard that when he was on, there was no one better...

it's so strange though to get to the end of your ballot and see such stellar names that you still haven't slotted in -- that goes for every position though to me so far...then I remind myself -- we're talking about 13 of the best of all time with a million factors to consider...

[Golden Bear]

One thing that I've done throughout, probably a bit more than most, is put a lot of weight on a player's career line; essentially I put more emphasis on career value than peak value, I guess, which hurts players like Koufax, who were really, really good for a 5-6 year period, but didn't end up reaching several major milestones.

The same is true of Dizzy Dean and Hack Wilson, for the record; I didn't mean to distress Throwback so much, but with all these awesome players to distinguish between, something had to be the criteria, and I went with career length as a major factor in my decision making.