Concepcion -- HOF? - Page 2

02-28-2002, 12:42 AM

Good points Golden Bear. But I wasn't really besmirching Concepcion, I wasn't really trying to make any point about Concepcion. He was a terrific player.

I don't think anyone would blame Concepcion for the fact that there were no good shortstops in his time; the point is, however, that "He was the best player at his position" or "He was X runs above average" do not mean the same thing at all times, in all eras.

But to address Concepcion specifically...he is a borderline case for the HOF. I think you can make a case that Tony Fernandez was just as good.

Golden Bear · 02-28-2002, 02:00 AM

I might not disagree with that. Here I get a bit subjective though -- Concepcion was about as good as Tony; in fact, at Tony's peak, he was probably better than Davey...but, Concepcion was more consequential, and more memorable, somehow.

I wouldn't be appalled by Fernandez getting HOF support, but for some reason he's not the type of guy that will. (I'm almost thinking of Vern Stephens here.) It might be the syndrome that he started very strong and then had a long career at above average, a la Gooden, and others. Which probably isn't fair, but somehow our perceptions seem to work that way. Never understood why that is.

I think I'd put Davey ahead of Tony in the queue. Just me, though; you raise a good point that they're close.

02-28-2002, 03:18 AM

Yes, I agree.

I don't think there's a shot in hell Fernandez makes the Hall, but he was a pretty significant player who doesn't deserve to be simply buried under the crush of Ripken/Yount/Trammell and A-Rod/Nomar/Jeter sandwich.

A friend of mine raises an interesting point about the Hall of Fame:

It's not called the Hall of Really Good Players Who Had Long Careers, or the Hall of Guys Who Were Dominant Players For A While. It's called the Hall of Fame. Fame is something hard to define, but whatever it is, Concepcion has more of it than Fernandez.

I'm not sure I buy that argument, but you know, the HOF isn't just for people like us.

Xanadu Dragon · 02-28-2002, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baudib
It's not called the Hall of Really Good Players Who Had Long Careers, or the Hall of Guys Who Were Dominant Players For A While. It's called the Hall of Fame. Fame is something hard to define

Agreed 100%. But, the writers and vets don't see it that way.

Golden Bear · 02-28-2002, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baudib
Fame is something hard to define, but whatever it is, Concepcion has more of it than Fernandez.

I agree too...I think your friend nailed it.

KCBOOMER · 02-28-2002, 11:18 AM

I would argue subjectively against Concepcion on the grounds that a team with that many "in their prime" HoFers (Rose, Bench, Perez, Morgan, and Concepcion) with an HoF manager ought to do better than 2 world championships.

On the other hand he was much superior to his competition at SS. Of course, that is a pretty sorry lot.

SmedIndy · 02-28-2002, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baudib

I don't fail to see that. I assume everyone knows that. But do you think Watson was better than Greenberg?

No, of course not. BTW - Greenberg's RCAP for his career is more than double of Bob Watsons, so I don't understand your point at all.

In my mind, I reserve the HOF for the best of the best. Concepcion was good, certainly the best in the majors for a while, but still that's not good enough.

And yes he did accumulate a lot of hits, but for the last couple of seasons he hung around simply as a favor, I guess.

If he would have quit at age 35 or so, he may have more of a case.

02-28-2002, 05:24 PM

I think it's silly to say someone "hurts" their case by hanging around too long. Concepcion, Rose...what these guy do at 39, 42, or whatever doesn't do anything to detract from their accomplishments at 27, 32, 33....only in Total Baseball does it matter. No one took away the Reds' or Phillies' pennants because Pete Rose sucked 10 years later.

Golden Bear · 02-28-2002, 10:06 PM

I agree. You build a HOF case on what you do (a) in your prime years, and (b) for your total career. To dock a guy for a few twilight years as a more ordinary regular or a part time player, or oppositely for a few years as a part timer early in his career, is losing the forest in the trees.

SmedIndy · 02-28-2002, 10:21 PM

I think it does hurt the perception of the player though, to the writers and fans, if he looks like he's desparately hanging on. A lot of those guys have short memories and it pains the fans to see someone like Concepcion become a poor player.

02-28-2002, 10:26 PM

I know what you mean. Frankly it was about time for Gwynn and Ripken to go and I was weary of Rickey's act about five years ago. After years of being Stan Javier/John Cangelosi, the memory of Rickey as the best offensive player in the game dims a bit...

although I think the worst case of this ever was Steve Carlton....sheesh.

SmedIndy · 02-28-2002, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baudib

although I think the worst case of this ever was Steve Carlton....sheesh.

You aren't kidding about that. What a disgrace.

TGwynn19 · 03-01-2002, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmedIndy

You aren't kidding about that. What a disgrace.

Are you kidding me??!!! Smed and Baudib agree on something???

The Padres win the pennant!! The Padres win the pennant!!

gyb13 · 03-01-2002, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TGwynn19
The Padres win the pennant!! The Padres win the pennant!!

Is it 2004 already? Man, I gotta stop drinking...

sweaver · 03-01-2002, 04:23 PM

This just in......hell has frozen over.

This also illustrates why value is best calculated from replacment value, rather than average.

02-28-2002, 11:18 AM	#6
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	I would argue subjectively against Concepcion on the grounds that a team with that many "in their prime" HoFers (Rose, Bench, Perez, Morgan, and Concepcion) with an HoF manager ought to do better than 2 world championships. On the other hand he was much superior to his competition at SS. Of course, that is a pretty sorry lot. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

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02-28-2002, 12:42 AM	#1
Baudib Posts: n/a	Good points Golden Bear. But I wasn't really besmirching Concepcion, I wasn't really trying to make any point about Concepcion. He was a terrific player. I don't think anyone would blame Concepcion for the fact that there were no good shortstops in his time; the point is, however, that "He was the best player at his position" or "He was X runs above average" do not mean the same thing at all times, in all eras. But to address Concepcion specifically...he is a borderline case for the HOF. I think you can make a case that Tony Fernandez was just as good.

02-28-2002, 02:00 AM	#2
Golden Bear NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,100	I might not disagree with that. Here I get a bit subjective though -- Concepcion was about as good as Tony; in fact, at Tony's peak, he was probably better than Davey...but, Concepcion was more consequential, and more memorable, somehow. I wouldn't be appalled by Fernandez getting HOF support, but for some reason he's not the type of guy that will. (I'm almost thinking of Vern Stephens here.) It might be the syndrome that he started very strong and then had a long career at above average, a la Gooden, and others. Which probably isn't fair, but somehow our perceptions seem to work that way. Never understood why that is. I think I'd put Davey ahead of Tony in the queue. Just me, though; you raise a good point that they're close.

02-28-2002, 03:18 AM	#3
Baudib Posts: n/a	Yes, I agree. I don't think there's a shot in hell Fernandez makes the Hall, but he was a pretty significant player who doesn't deserve to be simply buried under the crush of Ripken/Yount/Trammell and A-Rod/Nomar/Jeter sandwich. A friend of mine raises an interesting point about the Hall of Fame: It's not called the Hall of Really Good Players Who Had Long Careers, or the Hall of Guys Who Were Dominant Players For A While. It's called the Hall of Fame. Fame is something hard to define, but whatever it is, Concepcion has more of it than Fernandez. I'm not sure I buy that argument, but you know, the HOF isn't just for people like us.

02-28-2002, 05:24 PM	#8
Baudib Posts: n/a	I think it's silly to say someone "hurts" their case by hanging around too long. Concepcion, Rose...what these guy do at 39, 42, or whatever doesn't do anything to detract from their accomplishments at 27, 32, 33....only in Total Baseball does it matter. No one took away the Reds' or Phillies' pennants because Pete Rose sucked 10 years later.

02-28-2002, 10:06 PM	#9
Golden Bear NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,100	I agree. You build a HOF case on what you do (a) in your prime years, and (b) for your total career. To dock a guy for a few twilight years as a more ordinary regular or a part time player, or oppositely for a few years as a part timer early in his career, is losing the forest in the trees.

02-28-2002, 10:21 PM	#10
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	I think it does hurt the perception of the player though, to the writers and fans, if he looks like he's desparately hanging on. A lot of those guys have short memories and it pains the fans to see someone like Concepcion become a poor player.

02-28-2002, 10:26 PM	#11
Baudib Posts: n/a	I know what you mean. Frankly it was about time for Gwynn and Ripken to go and I was weary of Rickey's act about five years ago. After years of being Stan Javier/John Cangelosi, the memory of Rickey as the best offensive player in the game dims a bit... although I think the worst case of this ever was Steve Carlton....sheesh.

03-01-2002, 04:23 PM	#15
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	This just in......hell has frozen over. This also illustrates why value is best calculated from replacment value, rather than average.

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