Nolan Ryan - Overrated

[SmedIndy]

Wired Tiger (which I swear is Barbaro Garbey hepped up on goofballs) said he thought Nolan Ryan was over-rated.

Well, what's the consensus here?

I think he was not this myth-like pitcher. He was a great pitcher, a HOF pitcher, but not at the level of Grove, Johnson, Koufax or Feller. I think he's even a step below the Gibsons and Carltons.

He threw extremely hard for a long time. He had the misfortune of playing for some mediocre-or-worse teams in California and Houston (yeah, you try to win with Dave Chalk playing every day), but he also put a lot on base by his own hand.

He had some exceptional years (1977, with a RSAA of 35) and some lousy years. He's tied for 70th in RSAA all-time, and tied for 59th in RSAA since 1900.

Yeah, he's a bit overrated, but it shouldn't diminish his status as a HOFer, Bill Conlin be damned.

[KCBOOMER]

To me Nolan Ryan wasn't as valuable to his team as Don Sutton despite the very similar nature of their career wins. But 300+ wins and seven no-hitters means you are an HoFer. Not first tier, but bona fide.

I believe until late in his career Ryan's winning percentage was lower than the teams he played on. I don't believe he ever played on a "bad" team but then he never was on a really good one after leaving NY.

I had the fortune/misfortune to be at Ryan's first no-hitter which was thrown in KC against the Royals.

[WiredTiger]

SmedIndy... Excellent Barbaro Garbey reference (who actually runs a hitting clinic about 2 miles from my house).

Don't get me wrong Nolan Ryan is definitely HOF material. But I think he gets mentioned way too often among the best pitchers of all time simply because of his strikeouts.

He had some very good years but was he ever a truly dominant pitcher?

Browsing through his career it's tough to find one season where he was truly dominant. His best season was probably the half season in 1981.

I realize his W-L record probably would have been a lot better if he had played on decent teams. But does he get in if he stops pitching before he gets into his 40s? He had some decent seasons in his 40s but nothing spectacular. But it helped him go from 253 wins to over 300. It's a lot tougher case if he finishes with a W-L record of 253-226.

For some reason it's always been a pet peeve of mine that he seemed to get more publicity as a great pitcher than Tom Seaver, who I think is superior.

[sweaver]

If you poll 1000 people on the street about who is the greatest pitcher ever, the most common answer will be Nolan Ryan. In that sense, he is overrated. Among baseball people, I don't think he is.

[SmedIndy]

Man, Don Sutton's getting some LOVE in the 'Shrine

Maybe he'll stop broadcasting now.

Anyway, back on topic, I guess casual fans just remember who made Advil commercials and who pounded on Robin Ventura's melon. It's not like we're touting Jack Billingham for the hall here.

Now if Kid Nichols would come back from the dead....

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by WiredTiger
SmedIndy... Excellent Barbaro Garbey reference (who actually runs a hitting clinic about 2 miles from my house).

Barbaro doesn't have a session on fan relations, does he?

[Xanadu Dragon]

I think this offers where Ryan ranks:

Top seven, leaders BR/9 IP, above league average, 1900 forward, min 5000 IP:


1 Walter Johnson - 2.33
2 Grover C Alexander - 1.91
3 Don Sutton - 1.73
4 Warren Spahn - 1.62
5 Gaylord Perry - 1.23
6 Steve Carlton - 0.77
7 Nolan Ryan - 0.70

Whatever you think of Lefty, Ryan is right there, or should be.

[WiredTiger]

Originally posted by SmedIndy


Barbaro doesn't have a session on fan relations, does he?

I forget what he did... I vaguely remember him being in trouble but can't recall the specifics. What was it that he did?

I think Ryan is terribly overrated. I think he's more or less even with Sutton, and if either didn't get to 300 wins, I wouldn't put them in.

Yeah, Ryan pitched mostly for bad teams, but a great pitcher on a bad team should be able to have a big winning year once in a while. Tom Seaver pitched for some bad teams, too; Steve Carlton won 27 games on a last-place team once.

Not counting the '69 Mets, Ryan was on three division winners; his record in those years was just 39-32 -- he had a worse record than the teams he pitched for.

He was on some other teams with winning records, but the only time he had a really impressive record was 1981, when he went 11-5.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by WiredTiger


I forget what he did... I vaguely remember him being in trouble but can't recall the specifics. What was it that he did?

When playing for Evansville, I think he threw a bat at a fan and then went after him in the stands.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Three things you do have to respect about Ryan:

1. He had SEVEN no-hitters.
2. By age 21, he was an effective big league pitcher, and, at age 45 (!) he was still an effective major league pitcher.
3. 5,714 Ks is a record that will probably never be broken. If a pitcher whiff 300 a year for 20 years IN A ROW, he'd still be 1,715 Ks away from breaking the record.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
3. 5,714 Ks is a record that will probably never be broken. If a pitcher whiff 300 a year for 20 years IN A ROW, he'd still be 1,715 Ks away from breaking the record.

Is this fuzzy math? 200 a year, Steve, 200....

[Xanadu Dragon]

Good catch - early AM typo-itis, I guess?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
I think this offers where Ryan ranks:

Top seven, leaders BR/9 IP, above league average, 1900 forward, min 5000 IP:


1 Walter Johnson - 2.33
2 Grover C Alexander - 1.91
3 Don Sutton - 1.73
4 Warren Spahn - 1.62
5 Gaylord Perry - 1.23
6 Steve Carlton - 0.77
7 Nolan Ryan - 0.70

Whatever you think of Lefty, Ryan is right there, or should be.

I wonder where Ryan would rank as a pitcher if we used the statistic RA (Run Average) instead of ERA (Earned Run Average). Ryan walked an awful lot of batters.

Any pitcher who wins 300 games is a great pitcher; to say otherwise is completely unfair to the last 2-3 generations of pitchers, especially in light of the decline in 20 game winners. Ryan is a Hall-of-Famer by the standards of the REAL Hall-of-Fame, the one that honors Rube Marquard, Jesse (Pop) Haines, Fergie Jenkins, and Walter Johnson together. No pitcher who did what Ryan did in his career is outside the Hall.

However, to equate him with a higher standard, an "inner circle" standard, is ridiculous. He's as good as Sutton. That's not a diss.
Sutton was a great pitcher. Because he wasn't spectacular, because he didn't pitch no-hitters, or hit the 5K strikeout milestone, we view Ryan as much greater. However, they pitched in simalar circumstances, in almost the same era, and compiled almost the same results. Baseball is not a spectacle. While it is true that a hard thrower can be assumed to last longer than a "stuff" pitcher, Sutton did last as long as Ryan, with similar results, factoring out walks, K's, and no-hitters.

You can look it up.