Who's the Best SS of All-Time? (NDF Contest - SS)

Duque · 02-13-2002, 03:06 AM

If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252

This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as a Shortstop. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Tuesday, 19 February 2002.

Here's the Shortstops selected in the draft:

Mexicani Blue - Tony Fernandez
hmrsf - Robin Yount
b-ball-lunachik - Lou Boudreau
redsox617 - Joe Cronin
ChrisCary - Honus Wagner
Throwback - Arky Vaughan
Duque - Barry Larkin
Yogi#8Fan - George Davis
Golden Bear - Cal Ripken, Jr.
Buzz Buzzard - Luke Appling
pjl7 - Ernie Banks
nyy26wc - Alex Rodriguez
Xanadu Dragon - Ozzie Smith

Xanadu Dragon · 02-13-2002, 09:59 AM

Ozzie Smith - -

greatest fielding SS of all-time - - that's a given.

With the bat, few SS that played as long as he did contributed with the bat as well:

RUNS CREATED/GAME
1 Honus Wagner 8.26
2 Cal Ripken 5.40
3 Ozzie Smith 4.24
4 Luis Aparicio 3.85

min 10,000 PA on the above list

Bill James lists him as the 7th best SS of all-time (behind Wagner, Vaughan, Ripken, Yount, Banks and Larkin) - - -

- - and, this is why he should be no lower than 6th or 7th on your ballot as well!

ChrisCary · 02-13-2002, 10:04 AM

Thank you, Mr. Dragon

Xanadu Dragon · 02-13-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Thank you, Mr. Dragon

No biggie - Honus is the best - no secret.

Duque · 02-13-2002, 10:43 AM

Maybe we can get a unanimous 1st place vote this time?

James rates Wagner as the top offensive and defensive shortstop, though if you take out his playing time at other positions, Ozzie beats him in defense.

Barry Larkin, though, may be one of the more underrated players on this list. James calls him "one of the ten most complete players in baseball history" (among all positions). Larkin hits for average (career .300 BA), has above-average power for a SS (career .454 SLG), gets on-base (career .377 OBP), is an excellent basestealer (362 SB compared to just 73 CS - an 83% success rate), and plays Gold Glove defense.

Xanadu Dragon · 02-13-2002, 11:38 AM

My only knock on Larkin is that I see him as brittle.

b-ball-lunachik · 02-13-2002, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Thank you, Mr. Dragon

oh, so now that you think you have the best at a certain position, you come into the debate thread?

b-ball-lunachik · 02-13-2002, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duque
Maybe we can get a unanimous 1st place vote this time?

been there, done that with Walter Johnson, no?

Duque · 02-13-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik

been there, done that with Walter Johnson, no?

This is true! How soon I forget.

b-ball-lunachik · 02-13-2002, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisCary

I've been here when I thought something I could say or point out may influence a vote and have read the posts when I felt like I needed more information.

And by the way, I don't think I have the best SS, I'm sure that you also know

ahh, I see...well, I'm sure you don't care what James or Total Baseball says anyway...if I'm quoting you correctly:

Quote:

Originally posted by ChrisCary

I've been VERY surprised at how many people reference or quote other people's lists in explaining their choices or trying to convince the rest of us of their player.

so, do you have an argument for Wagner that doesn't rely on Steve's list from James?

I'm sure you saw enough games of Wagner's to wax poetic, no? Or is your time machine broken?

Xanadu Dragon · 02-13-2002, 01:01 PM

Did Chris delete a post or something? Luna - what are you quoting?

b-ball-lunachik · 02-13-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Did Chris delete a post or something? Luna - what are you quoting?

Sorry for the confusion Steve...just busting Chris' chops because he's told me that I rely too much on that stuff...and for older players, I'm still waiting for the answer on what I'm supposed to use !!

I quoted that from the other thread on "Question about voting process", not this one....

Xanadu Dragon · 02-13-2002, 01:18 PM

Now I see

pjl7 · 02-13-2002, 02:04 PM

Anyone using external resources, please remember that some sources (such as Bill James Electronic Encyc.) list Banks as a first baseman. His RC/G is way better than guys like Smith and Aparicio but sometimes his name gets omitted.

PS- He won a Gold Glove and two MVP awards at short so a huge penalty for career defense isn't warranted.

Duque · 02-13-2002, 02:54 PM

I think James does rate Banks as a SS. Besides, even if you were to separate Banks the SS from Banks the 1B, his numbers in the 8 or 9 seasons he played the majority of his games at short would be impressive nonetheless.

02-13-2002, 03:06 AM	#1
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	Who's the Best SS of All-Time? (NDF Contest - SS) If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252 This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as a Shortstop. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Tuesday, 19 February 2002. Here's the Shortstops selected in the draft: Mexicani Blue - Tony Fernandez hmrsf - Robin Yount b-ball-lunachik - Lou Boudreau redsox617 - Joe Cronin ChrisCary - Honus Wagner Throwback - Arky Vaughan Duque - Barry Larkin Yogi#8Fan - George Davis Golden Bear - Cal Ripken, Jr. Buzz Buzzard - Luke Appling pjl7 - Ernie Banks nyy26wc - Alex Rodriguez Xanadu Dragon - Ozzie Smith __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

02-13-2002, 09:59 AM	#2
Xanadu Dragon NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 2,704	Ozzie Smith - - greatest fielding SS of all-time - - that's a given. With the bat, few SS that played as long as he did contributed with the bat as well: RUNS CREATED/GAME 1 Honus Wagner 8.26 2 Cal Ripken 5.40 3 Ozzie Smith 4.24 4 Luis Aparicio 3.85 min 10,000 PA on the above list Bill James lists him as the 7th best SS of all-time (behind Wagner, Vaughan, Ripken, Yount, Banks and Larkin) - - - - - and, this is why he should be no lower than 6th or 7th on your ballot as well! __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

02-13-2002, 10:43 AM	#5
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	Maybe we can get a unanimous 1st place vote this time? James rates Wagner as the top offensive and defensive shortstop, though if you take out his playing time at other positions, Ozzie beats him in defense. Barry Larkin, though, may be one of the more underrated players on this list. James calls him "one of the ten most complete players in baseball history" (among all positions). Larkin hits for average (career .300 BA), has above-average power for a SS (career .454 SLG), gets on-base (career .377 OBP), is an excellent basestealer (362 SB compared to just 73 CS - an 83% success rate), and plays Gold Glove defense. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

02-13-2002, 11:38 AM	#6
Xanadu Dragon NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 2,704	My only knock on Larkin is that I see him as brittle. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

02-13-2002, 01:01 PM	#11
Xanadu Dragon NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 2,704	Did Chris delete a post or something? Luna - what are you quoting? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

02-13-2002, 10:04 AM	#3
ChrisCary High and tight Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 1,281	Thank you, Mr. Dragon

02-13-2002, 01:18 PM	#13
Xanadu Dragon NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 2,704	Now I see __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator PLEASE READ: Community Standards . : ~ : PLEASE SHOP: Our Stuff! : ~ : HOW CAN YOU: Help? : ~ : BE NICE: To Your Fav Baseball Person.

02-13-2002, 02:04 PM	#14
pjl7 NetShrine MVP Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 232	Anyone using external resources, please remember that some sources (such as Bill James Electronic Encyc.) list Banks as a first baseman. His RC/G is way better than guys like Smith and Aparicio but sometimes his name gets omitted. PS- He won a Gold Glove and two MVP awards at short so a huge penalty for career defense isn't warranted. __________________ There is only one MLB franchise with division championships in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s.

02-13-2002, 02:54 PM	#15
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	I think James does rate Banks as a SS. Besides, even if you were to separate Banks the SS from Banks the 1B, his numbers in the 8 or 9 seasons he played the majority of his games at short would be impressive nonetheless. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

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