NDF Contest - Catcher

[Duque]

If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252

This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as a Catcher. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Friday, 1/18/02.

Here's the Catchers selected in the draft:

Mexicani Blue - Mike Piazza
HMRSF - Ted Simmons
b-ball-lunachik - Gabby Hartnett
redsox617 - Yogi Berra
ChrisCary - Carlton Fisk
Throwback - Ernie Lombardi
Duque - Mickey Cochrane
Yogi#8Fan - Bill Dickey
GoldenBear - Ivan Rodriguez
BuzzBuzzard - Gary Carter
pjl7 - Roy Campanella
nyy26wc - Joe Torre
Xanadu Dragon - Johnny Bench

[Duque]

Here's my plug for Mickey Cochrane -

Numbers vary dramatically in baseball, especially over the course of 100+ years. When evaluating players, it helps to look at how good the players were in their own eras, and how they performed relative to other players at the same time. By that logic, Mickey Cochrane was generally considered the best catcher of his era, hitting for average, hitting for power, drawing walks, and handling one of the league's best pitching staffs.

Cochrane holds one of the highest career Batting Averages for a catcher, at .320. In his career, he also had a .419 OBP and a .478 SLG - both outstanding marks for most catchers. Cochrane was one of the game's best contact hitters - he never struck out more than 26 times in an entire season, and only K'd 217 times in his entire 13 seasons, compiling a 4:1 Walk to Strikeout ratio.

Cochrane was a 2-time All-Star and 2-time MVP, winning the award in both 1928 and 1934. He finished in the top 10 for MVP 6 times. His .419 career OBP ranks 19th among all players in history, and his 897 OPS ranks 58th - again, outstanding marks, considering he played a position not known for offense.

Cochrane was not just offense - he was a great defensive catcher as well, having a .985 career fielding % (compared to the .980 league average), and a career Range Factor of 5.00 (compared to the 4.13 league average). The 1931 Philadelphia As, with Lefty Grove, George Earnshaw, Rube Waldberg, et al. were probably the greatest rotation of the decade, and one of the greats all time. The 1928-32 As had one of the best extended runs by a starting rotation that compares to the Braves of the mid-90s. And Cochrane was their primary catcher.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Quick, show of hands - - -

Do ya'll concur that Johnny Bench was the best all-round catcher in the history of the game - - - or, do you need me to insult your baseball knowledge with a write detailing this fact?

[ChrisCary]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Quick, show of hands - - -

Do ya'll concur that Johnny Bench was the best all-round catcher in the history of the game - - - or, do you need me to insult your baseball knowledge with a write detailing this fact?

Please Dragon,

Slap me hard and call me stupid

[Duque]

Some might say Yogi Berra

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Some might say Yogi Berra

Not if you factor in defense. Bench, pardon the pun, is the benchmark.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Slap me hard and call me stupid

Considered by some the greatest catcher of all time, Johnny Bench got a "can't miss" tag when Peninsula of the Carolina League retired his uniform after he hammered 22 homers in 98 games as an 18-year-old in 1966. He spent the first four months of the 1967 season at Buffalo, then took over the Cincinnati catching job in August 1967. In spring training of 1968, Ted Williams autographed a baseball "To Johnny Bench, a Hall of Famer for sure." Bench met expectations quickly by catching a rookie-record 154 games that season, setting a record for catchers with 40 doubles, and becoming the first catcher to win National League Rookie of the Year honors. He went on to become the National League's dominant catcher for nearly a decade and a half.

Bench batted either fourth or fifth for the Big Red Machine team that dominated the National League in the 1970s and won six division titles, four pennants, and two World Series. From 1970 to 1977, Cincinnati players won six of eight MVP awards; Bench won two of them. The first came in 1970 following his league-leading 45 home runs and 148 RBI, all-time records for catchers. After holding out and slumping somewhat in 1971, Bench rebounded in 1972 to win his second MVP award. That year, he had the hottest streak of his career, hitting seven homers in five straight games from May 30 through June 3, and he finished with 40 homers and 125 RBI, leading the league in both categories for the second time. He homered three times on July 26, 1970, en route to setting a record of 36 homers by July 31, and twice more had three-homer games, on May 9, 1973 and May 29, 1980. He won his third RBI crown in 1974, driving in 129 runs and leading the NL with 314 total bases.

Of partial Native American descent, Bench was named to the All-Star team in 13 consecutive seasons, and he faced fellow Native American catcher Bill Freehan in five of them. He batted .370 in All-Star competition, hitting homers in the 1969, 1971, and 1973 games and narrowly missing a second homer in 1969. His selection as an All-Star was based as much on his defensive abilities as his offensive skills. He won ten straight Gold Glove Awards and set a NL record by catching at least 100 games in each of his first 13 seasons. He established career records for putouts and chances. Blessed with exceptionally large hands, he was one of the first catchers after the Cubs' Randy Hundley to use a hinged mitt and a one-handed catching style. His throwing arm was unrivaled by catchers of his era.

[Duque]

This is true. But, heck, there can be a lot of good arguments as to why someone was the best catcher in MLB not named Bench.

Originally posted by Duque
Some might say Yogi Berra

Monument Park reads Bill Dickey as the best Yankee catcher so it's debatable.

[Duque]

Well, Dickey received a HUGE boost from playing half his games in Yankee Stadium, and either he was never as durable as Berra, or he was given a lot of time off, because Berra would always play a ton more games than Dickey did.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Well, Dickey .......either he was never as durable as Berra, or he was given a lot of time off, because Berra would always play a ton more games than Dickey did.

I think the issue was the Sunday DH back in Dickey's day. It was very common - - almost weekly - - to play two on Sunday and have Monday off.

That's good for missing 20 games right there.

[Duque]

James indicated in his book Dickey was a platoon player for much of his early career, until he started really pulling the ball. But you're right, catchers in those days were frequently given a lot of time off.

I don't neccessarily agree with James's rankings (I'd flop Bench and Berra, and I'm not sure I'd put Campanella as high), but here they are:

1. Yogi Berra
2. Johnny Bench
3. Roy Campanella
4. Mickey Cochrane
5. Mike Piazza
6. Carlton Fisk
7. Bill Dickey
8. Gary Carter
9. Gabby Hartnett
10. Ted Simmons
11. Joe Torre

13. Ivan Rodriguez

22. Ernie Lombardi

[BuzzBuzzard]

Carter was better than Fisk. The only reason Fisk looks as good as he does is because he was a compiler.

[hmrsf]

He looked better than that to me.......It is all downhill from here!I was hoping that Johnson would give me a boost but first place is only worth 13 points, not the total. Sooooo I will savor the moment of first place for a few more days. So short lived! Kind of like the Red Soxs......strong start........bad finish!

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
he was a compiler.

No pun intended, but, what a freakin' "buzz" word "compiler" has become in these parts lately. Who do we have the thank, Mike, or the Mad Dog?