Batting Order Construction

[Xanadu Dragon]

In my old mind, things are starting to stick - - one of the topics is batting order construction. (Feel free to jump in with the "it doesn't matter past the 1st inning" issue.)

Here's how it's jammed in my mind:

1st - High OBP, speed a plus

2nd - Can take pitches, ability to direct batted balls and mash a fastball a plus. Good OBP preferred.

3rd - Best all-around hitter on the team.

4th - Slugger. The man who can score 4 with one swing of the bat.

5th - Contact hitter with some pop. Good contact required - in case # 4 guy should K.

6th - Just like the # 5 guy - - OK if just a notch below.

7th - Just like the # 6 guy - - OK if just a notch below.

8th - Some one who can drive the ball. Somewhat like the 2nd string clean-up hitter.

9th - Pitcher in NL. In AL, someone with some speed who won't clog up the bases in front of your # 1 and # 2 guys.

Don't get me wrong - - the perfect line-up is actually Barry Bonds batting 9 times. I know that. But, that doesn't always happen. This "model" is meant more towards teams like the Twins, Reds, etc. Squads that have to manufacture runs, etc.

Any thoughts?

[gyb13]

Seems reasonable if you have guys who fit those roles.

Some food for discussion:

What of teams like the Twins or Orioles, who don't necessarily have big power guys in the middle of the lineup? How do you spread around contact hitters?

What about platoon advantages? How much emphasis should be given on creating a L R L R L type of lineup?

If you don't have a good OBP guy in your lineup, who leads off? Are you better off using a speedster (Womack) or a power hitter?

[Duque]

I'd say the #4-7 spots are getting kind of jumbled together these days into basically just power guys. It seems the best "pure" hitters on teams are now exclusively in the 1-2-3 slots.

Bill James brings up an interesting point in his new book - the Cubs used to have Ryne Sandberg hit 2nd and Mark Grace 3rd, just because Sandberg was a 2B and Grace was a 1B. 1st Basemen are supposed to be power hitters, 2nd basemen line-drive, bat control guys with some speed.

How many first basemen, and for that matter, catchers, leadoff?(Paul LoDuca and Jason Kendall might be the exceptions) I suppose it does have something to do with those positions requiring the least speed.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by gyb13
What of teams like the Twins or Orioles, who don't necessarily have big power guys in the middle of the lineup? How do you spread around contact hitters?

What about platoon advantages? How much emphasis should be given on creating a L R L R L type of lineup?

If you don't have a good OBP guy in your lineup, who leads off? Are you better off using a speedster (Womack) or a power hitter?

If no power, in today's game, might as well just not show up. You have to have at least one guy - even if it's David Ortiz or Jeff Conine.

With the contact guys, you should try to avoid stacking all your lefties and righties. Agreed.

Hmmm, if no OBP guy, power or speed? I'd probably go power - - give the guy who can score himself more ABs (like Bobby Bonds) than the guy who needs help to score (like Womack) even if he steals.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Bill James brings up an interesting point in his new book - the Cubs used to have Ryne Sandberg hit 2nd and Mark Grace 3rd, just because Sandberg was a 2B and Grace was a 1B. 1st Basemen are supposed to be power hitters, 2nd basemen line-drive, bat control guys with some speed.

I'd counter Bill on that.
I think # 2 guys, with a good leadoff hitter and good three man, see more fastballs - - esp. in the NL.

Sandberg's fastballs ended up in the Ivy or in the street.

Give Grace the same number 2 man fastballs and it's just a hard single or double.

Originally posted by gyb13
If you don't have a good OBP guy in your lineup, who leads off? Are you better off using a speedster (Womack) or a power hitter?

I think that the patient at the plate speedsters should be #1, #2, but someone who's a competent stealer (Jeter) is your likely #2, but a demon like Suzuki would be your #1, since he's also got tons of SB's.

After this, #3 is a good mix of the two, but these are like the table setters to me who can score runs and take full advantage of whatever the Albert Belles and Willie Stargells out there can clobber in for you, so the #1-3 wheels must burn.

#4 should be the hot guy, not just the "best" hitter who happens to be slumping. The Mets batted Shinjo in cleanup when Piazza wasn't doing so hot after the break. I'd agree w/Steve that #5 should be a pretty decent lumber guy also, as backup to #4.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Duque
How many first basemen, and for that matter, catchers, leadoff?(Paul LoDuca and Jason Kendall might be the exceptions) I suppose it does have something to do with those positions requiring the least speed.

That's the issue, though. These are based on the perception that speed matters at the top, which isn't the case anymore. I still don't get how AZ makes it with Womack at the top.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Hmmm, if no OBP guy, power or speed? I'd probably go power - - give the guy who can score himself more ABs (like Bobby Bonds) than the guy who needs help to score (like Womack) even if he steals.

I think that makes sense too. However, you don't see any manager venture away from the conventional and attempt that.

Originally posted by Duque
I'd say the #4-7 spots are getting kind of jumbled together these days into basically just power guys. It seems the best "pure" hitters on teams are now exclusively in the 1-2-3 slots.

By "pure" hitters, what do you mean? I've usually grouped hitters into two basic types: the Cobb/Speaker type of low-HR, hi-SB speed demons and the lumber guys (Ruth, Teddy).

All 4 are "pure hitters" by me, but if I had Cobb/Ruth or Speaker/Teddy, I'd put the speedy guys in the 1-3 slots then the lumber guys in the #4 slots.

Maybe it's just me thinking out loud, but would anyone agree that a speedy power guy like Say Hey would make an ideal #3 in that lineup, since he combines some of the best of speed and power?

[Duque]

You know, I am guilty of this myself - in my senior year of High School, I was the Bench Coach (and spare outfielder) of our baseball team, and since the coach was always standing in the 3rd base box, I got to do a lot of the lineups and stuff. When you only play around 20 games, it's hard to get OBP and SLG totals that mean anything, but we'd frequently have our 2nd baseman leading off because, well, he was REALLY fast. And we had a big, lumbering 1st baseman who I'd always pencil into the #5 slot.

Course, the big difference was we had our pitcher hitting 3rd, but I digress.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
I think that the patient at the plate speedsters should be #1, #2, but someone who's a competent stealer (Jeter) is your likely #2, but a demon like Suzuki would be your #1, since he's also got tons of SB's.

After this, #3 is a good mix of the two, but these are like the table setters to me who can score runs and take full advantage of whatever the Albert Belles and Willie Stargells out there can clobber in for you, so the #1-3 wheels must burn.

I disagree. I think the most important thing for 1-2 is OBP. Speed at the top, to me, is worth less than at the bottom of the lineup. If your 3-4 hit HRs, it is irrelevant on what base the 1-2 guy(s) is(are), as long as he's on base.
Now let's say your 7 guy gets on. Since your 8 and 9 guys aren't muscle guys (and not that good contact guys either), you want to put any baserunner ahead of them as close to home as possible in the event the 8-9 gets a blooper or sacrifice.
Thus I'd argue that speed would be more valuable around the 6 to 8 slots.

[Duque]

Originally posted by gyb13


That's the issue, though. These are based on the perception that speed matters at the top, which isn't the case anymore. I still don't get how AZ makes it with Womack at the top.

I agree - but these things are influenced by the perception of what 1st baseman and catchers should be, and what middle infielders should be, rather than what they actually are.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Course, the big difference was we had our pitcher hitting 3rd, but I digress.

HS - - best hitter is usually the best player who is usually also the pitcher.

Mattingly and McGwire pitched in HS. Doubt they batted 9th in HS.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by gyb13
I still don't get how AZ makes it with Womack at the top.

Not sure either. A guess - - could it be that he still takes a lot of pitches, 'tho never ball 4, and by working the pitcher he still helps the team in that role - to some small respect? I don't know his PIT/PA numbers.

Either that, or it's a default thing. Miller or Counsel ain't going to get it done. Next options would be Finley, Grace, or (then) Sanders. Given those options, you can see why TW gets the nod.

Originally posted by gyb13
I disagree. I think the most important thing for 1-2 is OBP. Speed at the top, to me, is worth less than at the bottom of the lineup. If your 3-4 hit HRs, it is irrelevant on what base the 1-2 guy(s) is(are), as long as he's on base.
Now let's say your 7 guy gets on. Since your 8 and 9 guys aren't muscle guys (and not that good contact guys either), you want to put any baserunner ahead of them as close to home as possible in the event the 8-9 gets a blooper or sacrifice.
Thus I'd argue that speed would be more valuable around the 6 to 8 slots.

I forgot to type in the OBP part. That's always a _must have_ in #1 and 2 slots so no getting away from the key role of table setters.

By speed in the 6-8, do you mean someone who can speed around the bases quickly (w/good baserunning instincts, of course), or do you also mean someone who can steal? I hadn't thought of the lower slots too much, since I figured those were for the impatient hitters, rooks getting their turn or someone whose got a great glove but hits like Ordonez. It's like a bad spot they'd been put to.

As far as putting the runner closer to home, that would need slugging and/or speed to get them there. Ideally, all baserunners would be at 2B or 3B, not just 1B, since even high OBP guys can whiff. For 3B runner, especially a tight game, I'd say this would be great if a power guy's up at the plate also, since at least he can hit a sac fly to the warning track to go ahead or at least tie the game up.