PEDs vs. Doctoring

Crash Course · 08-02-2005, 10:29 AM

In your mind, is there a difference between using Performance Enchancing Drugs (PEDs) and loading up a baseball, or corking a bat? Yes? No? Why?

mainsr · 08-02-2005, 10:45 AM

I can hear the cries of "bogus," but I think there is a difference. If we're talking steroids. HGH, and the like, they definitely enhance strength and stamina. No two ways. The cost may be at an increased risk of injury, but you take them, you WILL hit the ball farther, throw it harder, and run faster.

Messing with the ball is much more problematic. You load up the ball, and it might drop off a table. Or it might go haywire and you get an HBP or a WP/PB. Or it might do nothing - it's been widely speculated that the pitch that Bucky F. Dent hit off F. Mike Torrez in '78 was a hanging spitter.

Plus, even if you're Gaylord Perry, you're not going to load up on every single pitch. With the juice, you're stronger on every single play.

As for corking the bat - Norm Cash notwithstanding, I'm not convinced it confers all that much of an advantage.

agotlieb · 08-02-2005, 10:47 AM

It's all the same. Cheating is cheating.

RascalJones · 08-02-2005, 10:48 AM

I say there's a difference, because a ball can be found out during the course of a game, a corked bat as well, too much pine tar, whatever. Those alter objects that are easily discovered and changed. Taking PEDs, even with a 10 day suspension, the effects may linger, a doctored baseball/bat/glove can not.

robls · 08-02-2005, 11:06 AM

Baseball has so many contradictions, that commenting on one only seems unsatisfactory.

When Roger Clemens throws a pitch four inches off the plate that is called a strike, and a rookie pitcher (pick a name) throws the same pitch that is called a ball is that fair? Sames goes for a veteran hitter vs. a rookie.

Why doesn't baseball just come out and say who was taking PEDs?

Why don't the all players just take a urine/blood sample test, and make the results public?

And on and on.

Rob

Deep Blue · 08-02-2005, 11:21 AM

Essentially cheating is cheating, and in viewing accomplishments by people I would see the net result as similar - if the context is the same. Someone who uses steroids is cheating on eevery single at bat, on every pitch. Someone who corks the bat, on every at bat when they use the corked bat. Someone who juices up a ball - well however many pitches they do that. So although all are cheating, the amount they are cheating is different, and I think that amount is part of the context, and to me, changes how I view the crime.

hhascup · 08-02-2005, 11:33 AM

I agree with most of the statements.

Cheating is cheating,

Why doesn't baseball just come out and say who was taking PEDs?

If I was caught taking something, my name would be in the papers saying so.

Why don't the all players just take a urine/blood sample test, and make the results public?

If I was a player and didn't take anything, I would want that to happen so everyone knows that I was clean.

Baseball should be like the Olympics, ban anyone who comes out dirty for the season or more. I love baseball stats and this just puts a BIG * next to all the records they set.

Makofan · 08-02-2005, 11:41 AM

I say it's all cheating. That being said, would I cheat to win? Sure I would! The things that would deter me would be

1) availability of exploit
2) chance of being caught
3) penalty for being caught

Sadly, in real life I didn't need to cheat in my baserunning/fielding, and all the cheating in the world wouldn't have helped my hitting.

So I equate Sammy's bat-corking with Barry's flax seed oil and Gaylord's K-Y Jelly. If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying!

bluetowes · 08-02-2005, 12:40 PM

There is some different. Loading a baseball is just part of the game and has been there forever. Loading is still done but players know and for sure the pitchers. The batter can ask for a new ball at anytime. Pitcher cannot call for a new bat for the hitter, ever. So I see no problem with loading a ball. Of course I will say that because I was a pitcher. Corking a bat is the same as PED. You cannot see the drugs and the inside of the bat. That makes it unfair and wrong. Mark Mc use of drugs and what he took was not illegal at the time but he will be unfairly judged when it comes to the HOF, Sammy
may have corked a lot of bats. We don't know. I am a Cub fan but after the corked bats was found in his hand he stopped hitting homers as in the past.
Bonds never hit 50 or 60 homers in a season but in one he hit 73. Come on he used drugs. Jason said he did and was sorry. Jason G has more character than most of these players for saying the truth. Pal's 10 days suspension hurts because he has been so clean. Never looked for praise and just played the game. This is truely sad. Bonds will get in the Hall because he is the most disliked player to those outside of his family and the Giants. He has acted up ever back with the Pirates and his manager. Of these above only
McGuire should get into the Hall. Why because he did not use any legal drugs and his 70 Homers are inline with his other seasons. That is times at bat and homers hit. He has been injured so much. Ask any player who could hit 60 or more and they will tell you that Mc could if he stays healthy and he did. He hit 49 his rookie year. I waiting to see his lawsuit against Cansaco. If he does the suit, he can prove his claim if he fails to do so then he goes with the rest of the above mention and all fail to get into the HOF. They will
be with Roger Maris on the outside of the Hall. Is that fair for Maris? No, it is
not - Roger Maris did the hardest thing that a player could do and that was to break Ruth's record in the House the Ruth built. His dislike of the media is the only reason he is not in the Hall of Fame. He should be there.

captain_napalm · 08-02-2005, 01:23 PM

FWIW, it has been shown that a corked bat hurts your chances of hitting a HR

mainsr · 08-02-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robls

When Roger Clemens throws a pitch four inches off the plate that is called a strike, and a rookie pitcher (pick a name) throws the same pitch that is called a ball is that fair? Sames goes for a veteran hitter vs. a rookie.

Why doesn't baseball just come out and say who was taking PEDs?

Why don't the all players just take a urine/blood sample test, and make the results public?

Rob

One Rob to another:

1. I don't think that happens so much anymore since Questech came along. Remember Schilling taking a bat to one of the gizmos? That's why.

2. Because baseball doesn't know, given the testing that's been done to date.

3. I don't think the testing idea is bad. Making the results public would run into all sorts of legal entanglements that could be avoided with a mandated penalties. We know if a guy's suspended, he's dirty--that sort of thing.

masher · 08-02-2005, 02:46 PM

Hey man you have to look at it like this. Cheating is cheating but it only really matters once you get caught. Everybody does what they need to do to help them win, some guys cross the line and as long as they get away with it everyone is ok with it. once they get caught it's a different story.

No one is ever sorry when the cheat and get away with it. I've never heard an apology from a guy who corked his bat and hit 12 bombs and got away with it. As soon as the jig is up, all you hear is how sorry they are.

Are you kidding me, these guys don't care. If they can get away with it they will. Cheating will go on from now to the end of time. Anything for a win baby.

KCBOOMER · 08-02-2005, 04:04 PM

Hell yes, there is difference. PED's can destroy your body and leave you an old man way before your time.

As for what would happen if you personally got caught being a user the answer is probably not much. If you got caught smoking weed or snorting a little nose candy and could still come to work on-time and do your job most employers 1) will probably never know, and 2) probably feel obliged to see you get help. Naturally if you are in a job that is highly visible to the public this laissex faire attitude doesn't apply.

Infinity Ball · 08-02-2005, 04:44 PM

The one real difference I'll say there is between PEDs and effective bat corking is duration. If you're all hormoned-out, you're planning on cheating every single play of every game you're involved in. I'd doubt anyone has used a corked bat every time they went to the plate.

shoelessjoe · 08-02-2005, 05:14 PM

Absolutely NO DIFFERENCE ....Cheating's, cheating and that's all there is to it!

If you can't play ball with the GOD given ability you were given, then any
form of doctoring the ball, PEDs, corking the bat, or any other DISHONEST
way of trying to get an advantage, should NOT be allowed in ANY sport!

.......Of course, this is just my opinion!

View Poll Results: Is there a difference between using PEDs and doctoring?
Yes - There's A Difference	11	57.89%
No - It's All The Same	7	36.84%
Not Sure	1	5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

08-02-2005, 10:29 AM	#1
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	PEDs vs. Doctoring In your mind, is there a difference between using Performance Enchancing Drugs (PEDs) and loading up a baseball, or corking a bat? Yes? No? Why? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

08-02-2005, 10:45 AM	#2
mainsr NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 1,557	I can hear the cries of "bogus," but I think there is a difference. If we're talking steroids. HGH, and the like, they definitely enhance strength and stamina. No two ways. The cost may be at an increased risk of injury, but you take them, you WILL hit the ball farther, throw it harder, and run faster. Messing with the ball is much more problematic. You load up the ball, and it might drop off a table. Or it might go haywire and you get an HBP or a WP/PB. Or it might do nothing - it's been widely speculated that the pitch that Bucky F. Dent hit off F. Mike Torrez in '78 was a hanging spitter. Plus, even if you're Gaylord Perry, you're not going to load up on every single pitch. With the juice, you're stronger on every single play. As for corking the bat - Norm Cash notwithstanding, I'm not convinced it confers all that much of an advantage. __________________ "Let's let bye-byes be bye-byes." --The Greatest Leadoff Hitter of All Time

08-02-2005, 10:48 AM	#4
RascalJones NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 1,862	I say there's a difference, because a ball can be found out during the course of a game, a corked bat as well, too much pine tar, whatever. Those alter objects that are easily discovered and changed. Taking PEDs, even with a 10 day suspension, the effects may linger, a doctored baseball/bat/glove can not. __________________ "Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -- Red Barber, announcer "The biggest thrill a ballplayer can have is when your son takes after you. That happened when my Bobby was in his championship Little League game. He really showed me something. Struck out three times. Made an error that lost the game. Parents were throwing things at our car and swearing at us as we drove off. Gosh, I was proud." -- Bob Uecker

08-02-2005, 11:06 AM	#5
robls NetShrine Hot Prospect Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 15	PEDs vs Doctoring Baseball has so many contradictions, that commenting on one only seems unsatisfactory. When Roger Clemens throws a pitch four inches off the plate that is called a strike, and a rookie pitcher (pick a name) throws the same pitch that is called a ball is that fair? Sames goes for a veteran hitter vs. a rookie. Why doesn't baseball just come out and say who was taking PEDs? Why don't the all players just take a urine/blood sample test, and make the results public? And on and on. Rob

08-02-2005, 10:47 AM	#3
agotlieb Having A NetShrine Cup Of Coffee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 4	It's all the same. Cheating is cheating.

08-02-2005, 11:21 AM	#6
Deep Blue All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 361	Essentially cheating is cheating, and in viewing accomplishments by people I would see the net result as similar - if the context is the same. Someone who uses steroids is cheating on eevery single at bat, on every pitch. Someone who corks the bat, on every at bat when they use the corked bat. Someone who juices up a ball - well however many pitches they do that. So although all are cheating, the amount they are cheating is different, and I think that amount is part of the context, and to me, changes how I view the crime.

08-02-2005, 11:33 AM	#7
hhascup NetShrine MVP Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Lodi, New Jersey Posts: 182	I agree with most of the statements. Cheating is cheating, Why doesn't baseball just come out and say who was taking PEDs? If I was caught taking something, my name would be in the papers saying so. Why don't the all players just take a urine/blood sample test, and make the results public? If I was a player and didn't take anything, I would want that to happen so everyone knows that I was clean. Baseball should be like the Olympics, ban anyone who comes out dirty for the season or more. I love baseball stats and this just puts a BIG * next to all the records they set.

08-02-2005, 11:41 AM	#8
Makofan Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 791	I say it's all cheating. That being said, would I cheat to win? Sure I would! The things that would deter me would be 1) availability of exploit 2) chance of being caught 3) penalty for being caught Sadly, in real life I didn't need to cheat in my baserunning/fielding, and all the cheating in the world wouldn't have helped my hitting. So I equate Sammy's bat-corking with Barry's flax seed oil and Gaylord's K-Y Jelly. If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying!

08-02-2005, 12:40 PM	#9
bluetowes Having A NetShrine Cup Of Coffee Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 1	Ped There is some different. Loading a baseball is just part of the game and has been there forever. Loading is still done but players know and for sure the pitchers. The batter can ask for a new ball at anytime. Pitcher cannot call for a new bat for the hitter, ever. So I see no problem with loading a ball. Of course I will say that because I was a pitcher. Corking a bat is the same as PED. You cannot see the drugs and the inside of the bat. That makes it unfair and wrong. Mark Mc use of drugs and what he took was not illegal at the time but he will be unfairly judged when it comes to the HOF, Sammy may have corked a lot of bats. We don't know. I am a Cub fan but after the corked bats was found in his hand he stopped hitting homers as in the past. Bonds never hit 50 or 60 homers in a season but in one he hit 73. Come on he used drugs. Jason said he did and was sorry. Jason G has more character than most of these players for saying the truth. Pal's 10 days suspension hurts because he has been so clean. Never looked for praise and just played the game. This is truely sad. Bonds will get in the Hall because he is the most disliked player to those outside of his family and the Giants. He has acted up ever back with the Pirates and his manager. Of these above only McGuire should get into the Hall. Why because he did not use any legal drugs and his 70 Homers are inline with his other seasons. That is times at bat and homers hit. He has been injured so much. Ask any player who could hit 60 or more and they will tell you that Mc could if he stays healthy and he did. He hit 49 his rookie year. I waiting to see his lawsuit against Cansaco. If he does the suit, he can prove his claim if he fails to do so then he goes with the rest of the above mention and all fail to get into the HOF. They will be with Roger Maris on the outside of the Hall. Is that fair for Maris? No, it is not - Roger Maris did the hardest thing that a player could do and that was to break Ruth's record in the House the Ruth built. His dislike of the media is the only reason he is not in the Hall of Fame. He should be there.

08-02-2005, 01:23 PM	#10
captain_napalm NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ny Posts: 1,611	FWIW, it has been shown that a corked bat hurts your chances of hitting a HR __________________ "Cheating is baseball's oldest profession. No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it." - Thomas Boswell

08-02-2005, 02:46 PM	#12
masher Having A NetShrine Cup Of Coffee Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1	Cheating is cheating Hey man you have to look at it like this. Cheating is cheating but it only really matters once you get caught. Everybody does what they need to do to help them win, some guys cross the line and as long as they get away with it everyone is ok with it. once they get caught it's a different story. No one is ever sorry when the cheat and get away with it. I've never heard an apology from a guy who corked his bat and hit 12 bombs and got away with it. As soon as the jig is up, all you hear is how sorry they are. Are you kidding me, these guys don't care. If they can get away with it they will. Cheating will go on from now to the end of time. Anything for a win baby.

08-02-2005, 04:04 PM	#13
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Hell yes, there is difference. PED's can destroy your body and leave you an old man way before your time. As for what would happen if you personally got caught being a user the answer is probably not much. If you got caught smoking weed or snorting a little nose candy and could still come to work on-time and do your job most employers 1) will probably never know, and 2) probably feel obliged to see you get help. Naturally if you are in a job that is highly visible to the public this laissex faire attitude doesn't apply. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

08-02-2005, 04:44 PM	#14
Infinity Ball NetShrine Rookie Of The Year Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: The Chicagoland Area Posts: 48	The one real difference I'll say there is between PEDs and effective bat corking is duration. If you're all hormoned-out, you're planning on cheating every single play of every game you're involved in. I'd doubt anyone has used a corked bat every time they went to the plate.

08-02-2005, 05:14 PM	#15
shoelessjoe Having A NetShrine Cup Of Coffee Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: On a baseball diamond, somewhere in OZ! Posts: 10	Absolutely NO DIFFERENCE ....Cheating's, cheating and that's all there is to it! If you can't play ball with the GOD given ability you were given, then any form of doctoring the ball, PEDs, corking the bat, or any other DISHONEST way of trying to get an advantage, should NOT be allowed in ANY sport! .......Of course, this is just my opinion! __________________ * I've got....Baseball Fever! * Support Organ & Tissue Donation! *

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