Bret Saberhagen

Crash Course · 02-09-2005, 11:38 AM

Is he the best ever in big league history in terms of control/command? Should that be enough for Cooperstown?

Makofan · 02-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Wasn't Deacon Phillippe pretty good? Depends on how you want to define it - Saberhagen to me is Juan Marichal with fewer seasons - a hell of a great pitcher though

Dave Stieb was the best pitcher of the 80's - is that enough for Cooperstown?

I think the peculiarities of HOW the pitcher did his job are not as important as WHETHER he did his job. I don't think Saberhagen was any better than Hershiser or Stieb or Gooden or Key or Cone etc, so he is just "Very good", instead of distinguishing himself someway.

RascalJones · 02-09-2005, 01:22 PM

Soon, the standards are going to be lowered for pitchers - at least as far as a Wins milestone. The 300-win mark will be nearly unreachable with 5 man rotations and 100 pitch count games.

I still can't see 167 wins as being enough. When I think of Hall of Fame pitchers, I don't think of Brett Saberhagen. Maybe I should.

Crash Course · 02-09-2005, 01:23 PM

This is what got me thinking on Sabes:

Code:

MODERN (1900-)

INNINGS PITCHED displayed only--not a sorting criteria

STRIKEOUTS/WALKS                DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     IP     
1    Curt Schilling             2.37     4.30     1.93   2812.2   
2    Cy Young                   2.30     3.74     1.43   3634.1   
3    Bret Saberhagen            1.89     3.64     1.75   2562.2   
4    Mike Mussina               1.80     3.54     1.75   2833.1   
5    Dennis Eckersley           1.68     3.25     1.57   3285.2   
6    Christy Mathewson          1.68     2.96     1.29   4780.1   
7    Ferguson Jenkins           1.53     3.20     1.67   4500.2   
8    Greg Maddux                1.44     3.35     1.91   4181.1   
9    Walter Johnson             1.43     2.57     1.14   5914.2   
10   Dazzy Vance                1.42     2.43     1.02   2966.1   

WALKS/9 IP                      DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE     IP     
1    Bret Saberhagen            1.68     1.65     3.33   2562.2   
2    Robin Roberts              1.64     1.73     3.37   4689     
3    David Wells                1.57     1.92     3.49   3022.1   
4    Babe Adams                 1.53     1.29     2.83   2994.2   
5    Mike Mussina               1.49     2.02     3.52   2833.1   
6    Greg Maddux                1.46     1.87     3.34   4181.1   
7    Dutch Leonard              1.46     2.06     3.52   3220     
8    Lew Burdette               1.39     1.84     3.24   3067.2   
9    Cy Young                   1.35     1.11     2.46   3634.1   
10   Curt Schilling             1.35     2.04     3.39   2812.2

PianoMonkey · 02-09-2005, 02:42 PM

As far as HOF candidates go, Quiz has a much better shot, IMO.

Sabes certainly didn't walk anybody, though.

KCBOOMER · 02-09-2005, 04:31 PM

Man, I loved Saberhagen. I was at his no-hitter. I was there for the late summer afternoon game when it was 95+ outside and he and Nolan Ryan hooked up for 7 innings of magnificent baseball.

Only arm trouble derailed a potential HoF career. When he got traded for chump change I was staggered. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed in a baseball event in my life. For me and a whole group of Royals fans this was very disillusioning.

captain_napalm · 02-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Courtesy of baseball-reference's similarity scores

Code:

# John Candelaria (927)
# Ron Guidry (917)
# Ed Lopat (910)
# Jimmy Key (908)
# Ed Morris (907)
# Scott Sanderson (905)
# Curt Schilling (903)
# Doug Drabek (902)
# Bill Gullickson (901)
# Dave McNally (901)

02-09-2005, 11:38 AM	#1
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	Bret Saberhagen Is he the best ever in big league history in terms of control/command? Should that be enough for Cooperstown? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

02-09-2005, 01:22 PM	#3
RascalJones NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 1,862	Soon, the standards are going to be lowered for pitchers - at least as far as a Wins milestone. The 300-win mark will be nearly unreachable with 5 man rotations and 100 pitch count games. I still can't see 167 wins as being enough. When I think of Hall of Fame pitchers, I don't think of Brett Saberhagen. Maybe I should. __________________ "Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -- Red Barber, announcer "The biggest thrill a ballplayer can have is when your son takes after you. That happened when my Bobby was in his championship Little League game. He really showed me something. Struck out three times. Made an error that lost the game. Parents were throwing things at our car and swearing at us as we drove off. Gosh, I was proud." -- Bob Uecker

02-09-2005, 02:42 PM	#5
PianoMonkey Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: (Former) Home of the Blades Posts: 838	As far as HOF candidates go, Quiz has a much better shot, IMO. Sabes certainly didn't walk anybody, though. __________________ "We can’t win at home, we can’t win on the road, and quite frankly, I don’t know where else to play.”

02-09-2005, 04:31 PM	#6
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Man, I loved Saberhagen. I was at his no-hitter. I was there for the late summer afternoon game when it was 95+ outside and he and Nolan Ryan hooked up for 7 innings of magnificent baseball. Only arm trouble derailed a potential HoF career. When he got traded for chump change I was staggered. I don't think I have ever been so disappointed in a baseball event in my life. For me and a whole group of Royals fans this was very disillusioning. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

02-09-2005, 09:42 PM	#7
captain_napalm NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: ny Posts: 1,611	Courtesy of baseball-reference's similarity scores Code: # John Candelaria (927) # Ron Guidry (917) # Ed Lopat (910) # Jimmy Key (908) # Ed Morris (907) # Scott Sanderson (905) # Curt Schilling (903) # Doug Drabek (902) # Bill Gullickson (901) # Dave McNally (901) __________________ "Cheating is baseball's oldest profession. No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it." - Thomas Boswell

02-09-2005, 01:10 PM	#2
Makofan Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 791	Wasn't Deacon Phillippe pretty good? Depends on how you want to define it - Saberhagen to me is Juan Marichal with fewer seasons - a hell of a great pitcher though Dave Stieb was the best pitcher of the 80's - is that enough for Cooperstown? I think the peculiarities of HOW the pitcher did his job are not as important as WHETHER he did his job. I don't think Saberhagen was any better than Hershiser or Stieb or Gooden or Key or Cone etc, so he is just "Very good", instead of distinguishing himself someway.

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