The Curse of Harry Frazee

[timconnelly]

In 1915, the Boston Red Sox were right on the verge of putting together one of the great dynasties of all time. With a few breaks and with anybody in the world besides Harry Frazee owning the team, it just might have happened.

In 1915, the Red Sox not only won 101 games to capture the American League pennant, they won the first of 3 World Series titles that would come their way over the next 4 years.

It is common knowledge that prior to the 1920 season, the Red Sox sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees and have not won a World Series since. What I would like to do in this brief article is show how Frazee destroyed the Red Sox for the better part of 15 years. You just can't get rid of an amazing staff of young pitchers and trade them off to your biggest rival without devasating results.

I do not know the details of why Tris Speaker was traded to the Cleveland Indians after the 1915 season. I can only tell you that most teams do not trade off their best player right after winning the World Series. Speaker would win a World Series championship in 1920 with the Indians. (In fairness to Frazee, Speaker was sold before his arrival)

Now look at this pitching staff from 1916:

Player Ag G ERA W L SV GS CG SHO IP H ER BB HR SO
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+---+----+
SP *Babe Ruth 22 41 2.01 24 13 2 38 35 6 326.3 244 73 108 2 128
SP *Dutch Leonard 25 37 2.17 16 17 1 36 26 4 294.3 257 71 72 4 144
SP Carl Mays 25 35 1.74 22 9 0 33 27 2 289.0 230 56 74 1 91
SP Ernie Shore 26 29 2.22 13 10 1 27 14 1 226.7 201 56 55 1 57
SP Rube Foster 29 17 2.53 8 7 0 16 9 1 124.7 108 35 53 0 34

RP *Herb Pennock 23 24 3.31 5 5 1 5 4 1 100.7 90 37 23 2 35
RP Lore Bader 29 15 2.35 2 0 1 1 0 0 38.3 48 10 18 1 14

Sam Jones 24 9 4.41 0 1 1 1 0 0 16.3 15 8 6 1 5
Weldon Wyckoff 25 1 1.80 0


In 1922, Herb Pennock was sold to the Yankees. All he did was pitch his way into the Hall of Fame. Carl Mays was traded (or sold) from Boston to NY 1919 and would put together 53 wins during the 20 and 21 seasons. Sam Jones, acquired by the Yankees in 1920 would win 23 games in 1923. Joe Bush would make his way to NY and win 26 games in 1922. Waite Hoyt would be traded in 1921 and would win over 20 twice and like Pennock, wind up in Cooperstown.

In addition to those 5 pithers, Wally Schang and Everett Scott would make their way over to be starters for Yankee teams that would win 3 and 2 pennants respectively.

Here is the record of the team including their pennants , and what has happened since.
915 1st 101 50 .669 +2.5 WORLD CHAMPIONS
1916 1st 91 63 .591 +2 WORLD CHAMPIONS
1917 2nd 90 62 .592 9
1918 1st 75 51 .595 +2.5 WORLD CHAMPIONS
1919 6th 66 71 .482 20.5
1920 5th 72 81 .471 25.5
1921 5th 75 79 .487 23.5
1922 8th 61 93 .396 33
1923 8th 61 91 .401 37
1924 7th 67 87 .435 25
1925 8th 47 105 .309 49.5
1926 8th 46 107 .301 44.5
1927 8th 51 103 .331 59
1928 8th 57 96 .373 43.5
1929 8th 58 96 .377 48
1930 8th 52 102 .338 50
1931 6th 62 90 .408 45
1932 8th 43 111 .279 64
1933 7th 63 86 .423 34.5
1934 4th 76 76 .500 24
1935 4th 78 75 .510 16

As you can see, the curse of Harry Frazee hasd awful effect right at the time and for many years to come.

[SmedIndy]

Is it a curse, or just being an idiot.

Of course Connie Mack broke up TWO outstanding teams because of "economics".

Originally posted by timconnelly
I do not know the details of why Tris Speaker was traded to the Cleveland Indians after the 1915 season. I can only tell you that most teams do not trade off their best player right after winning the World Series.

Who was Tris Speaker traded for? After the 1998 WS, the Yankees traded their ace Boomer, but that was f/Clemens. I can't imagine anyone other than Ty Cobb being more desired than Tris at the time.

[hmrsf]

Tris Speaker was sold to the Cleveland Indians for $50,000 and two players pitching prospect Sad Sam Jones and infielder Fred Thomas.------source:Red Sox Century by Glen Stout and Richard A Johnson

[hmrsf]

Tris Speaker started out as a pitcher just like Ruth and Williams, but his arm did not hold out so he taught himself how to throw left handed. He taught himself to be ambidextrous. Did not matter, he was a better fielder.------Highly recommend Red Sox Century.

Another great is The Curse of the Bambino by Dan Shaunghnessy. WARNING: Do not read in the midst of a depression if you are a Soxs fan.

Originally posted by hmrsf
Tris Speaker was sold to the Cleveland Indians for $50,000 and two players pitching prospect Sad Sam Jones and infielder Fred Thomas.------source:Red Sox Century by Glen Stout and Richard A Johnson

Gee, I wonder when was the last time Boston sold someone who came back to bite them?

Dan's book is available from Amazon. I was a little depressed but now that I can add this to my previous orders, especially since it's available used..................

Red Sox Century is also available but not used. The Amazon link doesn't work f/me but you can find it under "Books".

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Gee, I wonder when was the last time Boston sold someone who came back to bite them?

[

The Sox still won two pennants in three years without Speaker. Of course they had a guy named Ruth, then....

Originally posted by SmedIndy
The Sox still won two pennants in three years without Speaker. Of course they had a guy named Ruth, then....

Rumor mill has it that Babe was the one I was referring to.

Interesting thing is that when Sox won the 1915 WS, pitcher Ruth hit 4 HRs (team high), .315 BA, .952 OPS, 0 SB's in only 92 AB's.

Tris had 0 HRs, .322 BA, .827 OPS, 29 SB's in 547 AB's.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Rumor mill has it that Babe was the one I was referring to.

Interesting thing is that when Sox won the 1915 WS, pitcher Ruth hit 4 HRs (team high), .315 BA, .952 OPS, 0 SB's in only 92 AB's.

Tris had 0 HRs, .322 BA, .827 OPS, 29 SB's in 547 AB's.

Of course then, people looked at homers like they look at triples today. A big shrug.