Pitch Counts

Crash Course · 06-03-2004, 08:06 AM

Bill James does a nice essay on this in the upcoming Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers. Basically, Bill says that "we have focused undue attention on the risk of chronic overuse, which in reality is merely one of many potential problems for a pitcher."

Thoughts?

Makofan · 06-03-2004, 08:28 AM

Amen to that. If I hear one more moron bring up pitch counts on a telecast I'll turn the tube off! Nolan Ryan attributed his 1987 season (8-16 while leading the league in K's and ERA) to Yogi Berra's mismanagement (and this was at the time, not fifteen years later in hindsight). He said he'd get taken out after 100 pitches because that was all they wanted him to pitch, regardless of the situation at the time in the game - could have been 5th inning, runners on 2nd and 3rd and bam he was gone. I have not checked into his scorecards to confirm this, but I am sure the gist of what he was saying is true.

Pitch counts are unique for each pitcher.

SmedIndy · 06-03-2004, 09:55 AM

Ryan is one freakish person. I don't want someone running out a young pitcher for 120 pitchers or so, especially on a cold day or night.

hopbitters · 06-03-2004, 10:28 AM

I don't dismiss pitch counts entirely, but I think it's patently asinine to apply them equally to all pitchers, particularly game to game. I do believe it can be deleterious to dramatically increase the total pitches for a season, particularly for younger players, but is throwing an extra twenty pitches over average in one game really going to ruin the arm of a well-conditioned veteran? I'm all for tracking anything that can be measured in the interest of discerning useful patterns and for comparing to previous seasons, but until you can prove a correlation between generalized pitch counts and individual performance, there's no reason to remove most pitchers based on a single-game pitch count. Sure, there are exceptions - Mussina seems to fall apart at nearly the same count every game - but they certainly aren't the rule.

RedSeat · 06-03-2004, 11:05 AM

I waver quite a bit on pitch counts. I do believe that throwing too many pitches, too often could possibly have negative effects. But it seems that people are looking at 100-120 as the accepted range for just about every pitcher, regardless of who they are or what they throw. I have trouble believing that it's anywhere near that simple. The individual pitchers and the coaches who see them everyday will know more than I ever will. So I tend not to comment on pitch counts.

Crash Course · 06-05-2004, 10:45 PM

I wonder if Will has read James' essay yet?

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/ne...ives&fext=.jsp

KCBOOMER · 06-06-2004, 01:21 AM

This is a real tough area because it is very hard to get real objective evidence. For some reason we aren't allowed to run tests on real humans.

I think it is important, that while pitch counts may have its flaws, that we don't overlook the issue that pitcher abuse is real. With the violence that today's pitchers use in their craft we need to learn how to protect this resource.

Crash Course · 06-07-2004, 07:06 AM

I thought this was pretty funny/clever - - Sabermetricians Call for Eliminating Pitchers 'For the Children' at http://www.sabrblows.blogspot.com/

KCBOOMER · 06-07-2004, 09:11 AM

It was funny and clever though the "hate crime" portion was in poor taste.

06-03-2004, 08:06 AM	#1
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	Pitch Counts Bill James does a nice essay on this in the upcoming Neyer/James Guide To Pitchers. Basically, Bill says that "we have focused undue attention on the risk of chronic overuse, which in reality is merely one of many potential problems for a pitcher." Thoughts? __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

06-03-2004, 10:28 AM	#4
hopbitters Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: downstate AZ Posts: 656	I don't dismiss pitch counts entirely, but I think it's patently asinine to apply them equally to all pitchers, particularly game to game. I do believe it can be deleterious to dramatically increase the total pitches for a season, particularly for younger players, but is throwing an extra twenty pitches over average in one game really going to ruin the arm of a well-conditioned veteran? I'm all for tracking anything that can be measured in the interest of discerning useful patterns and for comparing to previous seasons, but until you can prove a correlation between generalized pitch counts and individual performance, there's no reason to remove most pitchers based on a single-game pitch count. Sure, there are exceptions - Mussina seems to fall apart at nearly the same count every game - but they certainly aren't the rule. __________________ all bleeding eventually stops

06-05-2004, 10:45 PM	#6
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	I wonder if Will has read James' essay yet? http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/ne...ives&fext=.jsp __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

06-06-2004, 01:21 AM	#7
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	This is a real tough area because it is very hard to get real objective evidence. For some reason we aren't allowed to run tests on real humans. I think it is important, that while pitch counts may have its flaws, that we don't overlook the issue that pitcher abuse is real. With the violence that today's pitchers use in their craft we need to learn how to protect this resource. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

06-07-2004, 07:06 AM	#8
Crash Course NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 10,070	I thought this was pretty funny/clever - - Sabermetricians Call for Eliminating Pitchers 'For the Children' at http://www.sabrblows.blogspot.com/ __________________ Steve, Forum Admin Hit Grass, Win Salad Man, this is baseball. You gotta stop thinking. Just have fun. - Benny "The Jet" Rodriguez, in The Sandlot I've been going to games since August 8, 1973....and on August 22, 2004, finally, a foul ball came my way. I had to reach for it, and it deflected off the tip of my right index finger. Shoot, if I was only 4 inches taller! Have you read The Baseball Same Game?

06-03-2004, 08:28 AM	#2
Makofan Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 791	Amen to that. If I hear one more moron bring up pitch counts on a telecast I'll turn the tube off! Nolan Ryan attributed his 1987 season (8-16 while leading the league in K's and ERA) to Yogi Berra's mismanagement (and this was at the time, not fifteen years later in hindsight). He said he'd get taken out after 100 pitches because that was all they wanted him to pitch, regardless of the situation at the time in the game - could have been 5th inning, runners on 2nd and 3rd and bam he was gone. I have not checked into his scorecards to confirm this, but I am sure the gist of what he was saying is true. Pitch counts are unique for each pitcher.

06-03-2004, 09:55 AM	#3
SmedIndy NetShrine's Historian Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Zionsville, IN Posts: 10,569	Ryan is one freakish person. I don't want someone running out a young pitcher for 120 pitchers or so, especially on a cold day or night.

06-03-2004, 11:05 AM	#5
RedSeat Inducted Into The NetShrine Assembly of Fame Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: 10.3 miles SE of Yawkey Way Posts: 607	I waver quite a bit on pitch counts. I do believe that throwing too many pitches, too often could possibly have negative effects. But it seems that people are looking at 100-120 as the accepted range for just about every pitcher, regardless of who they are or what they throw. I have trouble believing that it's anywhere near that simple. The individual pitchers and the coaches who see them everyday will know more than I ever will. So I tend not to comment on pitch counts.

06-07-2004, 09:11 AM	#9
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	It was funny and clever though the "hate crime" portion was in poor taste. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Black Jack - It Doesn't Count	Wolf Hopper	2003 Hot Baseball Chatter Archives	34	05-06-2003 03:09 PM
Team philosophy: minor league pitch counts	gyb13	2003 Hot Baseball Chatter Archives	8	01-08-2003 10:31 AM
Kimm quotes	gyb13	2002 Hot Baseball Chatter Archives	18	07-23-2002 10:14 PM
Prior - Pitch Counts	SmedIndy	2002 Active Player News, Analysis, & Commentary Archives	24	06-11-2002 06:48 PM
Pitch Counts On Umps	NetShrine	2001 Hot Baseball Chatter Archives	9	07-27-2001 10:03 AM