Felipe Alou or Joe Carter

sweaver · 12-28-2003, 04:47 PM

In the spirit of the recent "Carter for the Hall" debate, do you think it's Felipe or Joe?

LeGrandOrange · 12-28-2003, 06:28 PM

I picked Felipe Alou, but I show extreme bias towards Felipe.

Felipe just appears to have had a better grasp on fundmanetals.

TimmyB · 12-28-2003, 06:54 PM

I'd give the whole ball of wax to Felipe, but his drop off in his last 4-5 seasons was pretty sharp. Carter, on the other hand, was able to maintain some respectable numbers nearly to the end.

Alou is something like 40 points ahead of Carter in OPS vs. Lg Ave., and that includes the pretty lackluster '70s.

Carter has the great WS moment and some decent power numbers (it's not like the guy was a bum or anything)... but I wonder if we'd even have this discussion if Felipe would have had one of his own.

KCBOOMER · 12-29-2003, 11:34 AM

I also have a bias to Felipe Alou, but he has a distinctly better OPS versus league advantage (.046 to .026), better OWP (.565 to .505) and RCAA (147 to 28).

Golden Bear · 12-29-2003, 02:58 PM

I hate to be simplistic, but Carter's got twice as many HR!

Alou was a nice player, and the eras and ballparks earn him some extra credit, but I've got to go with Joe. Peaks are probably about the same, but Carter was good for much longer.

WiredTiger · 12-29-2003, 03:12 PM

I would go with Felipe Alou. He was most likely the better fielder and his hitting was superior also.

gyb13 · 12-30-2003, 03:55 PM

can i take MOISES alou?

sweaver · 12-30-2003, 05:53 PM

Sorry, gyb, not one of our choices today.

pwdennis · 12-31-2003, 08:00 AM

I picked Felipe but he did a pretty quick fadeout, making it closer than it should be. Felipe was a better fielder and faster (not that I value SBs -because I don't value them unless the success rate is 75%+).

Skip · 12-31-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyb13

can i take MOISES alou?

No. Not Skip-to-m- Alou, either.

manny tortolero · 12-31-2003, 08:39 AM

I will go with Carter.
Alou was a fine player by seven years (1962-1968) but his peaks never reached higher levels probably because he was hitting in the midlle lower of the lineup after the cleanup hitters first in SF (Mays, Cepeda and McCovey) and later in Atlanta (Aaron, Torre and Carty). But in that lapse of time he never played a complete season (only one time played 160 games)
and spare part time of his defensive duties as 1B. After that period, his skills as outfielder was gone and in the next six years he was almost a mid time 1B with few offensive value. And he had a poor walk rate, not so bad as Carter's rate, but definitive bad..
In the other hand Carter was an iron-horse, playing 162 games in three seasons in a row, at least 155 games nine times and at least 139 games in 12 of his 16 seasons. He was a clock: between 1986 and 1997 (12 years) he averaged 29 hrs, 106 rbi and 15 SB per year! Yes, he never took a walk but probably because he understood that his work was be the cleanup hitter of the teams he played. In fact, a curious tip is that, in this 12 years period only other four team mates had 100+ rbi in the same team and only in three different years: Winfield (1992) Olerud and Molitor (1993), Sprague (1996). Any other of his team-mates reach the mark! And although he played 176 games as DH and 308 as 1B and his glove was average, his range as a corner outfielder was outstanding and kept him playing there 115 games in 1996 ,two years before his retire. And he was a nice runner with 78% of succesfull stealing bases!
Including the adjustment by different eras, Carter was a most complete player than Alou.

sweaver · 12-31-2003, 10:10 AM

In 1966, the Braves' first year in Atlanta, manager Bobby Bragan (and later Bill Hitchcock) had a bunch of power hitters like Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Joe Torre, Mack Jones, and Rico Carty, but no real leadoff man. So, Felipe was installed as a leadoff man. Not your typical top-of-the-order guy, but he hit .327 with 31 homers, and scored 122 runs.

Felipe played 484 career games in CF. Joe Carter played 432.

nyy26wc · 12-31-2003, 11:52 AM

Joe Carter is getting a bum rap here.

Alou's 147 to 28 edge in RCAA shows he's much better at putting runs on the scoreboard.

For OBA vs. the league average, Carter's -.028 to +.002 edge shows he was far superior in out making.

That raises the question of what is better, outmaking or run producing.

As much as it pains me to say this, I have to concede the outmaking has more practical benefits.

By making outs, innings end quicker, which leads itself to all sort of benefits--

1) You can get to the fridge quicker.
2) You can get to the bathroom quicker.
3) If you're watching in a room without Internet access, or at the game, the quicker the game ends, the quicker you can stop by and visit NDF.
4) The less runs your team scores, the less games your team wins, which reduces championship hopes, which reduces the chances that your personal bank account will take a hit with championship memoribilia, which then increases the chances that you will have more money in your pocket to get a SBE, to get Netshrine material and Will's upcoming book.

What are the benefit of runs--

1) They help you win games.

By a 4-1 margin, outmaking has more practical benefits.

Therefore, I extend a perpetual stupidity award to myself and to everyone else who writes derogatory things about outmakers.

(But, seriously, I vote for Alou.)

gyb13 · 12-31-2003, 04:23 PM

you're right, lee, i'm changing my vote.

only from moises to felipe alou

(damn you, sweav)

sweaver · 12-31-2003, 04:36 PM

Hey, dude, Felipe was better than Moises, too. At least so far.

View Poll Results: Felipe or Carter?
Felipe Alou	7	41.18%
Joe Carter	6	35.29%
Alou for career, Carter for peak	1	5.88%
Carter for career, Alou for peak	3	17.65%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

12-28-2003, 04:47 PM	#1
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Felipe Alou or Joe Carter In the spirit of the recent "Carter for the Hall" debate, do you think it's Felipe or Joe?

12-29-2003, 11:34 AM	#4
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	I also have a bias to Felipe Alou, but he has a distinctly better OPS versus league advantage (.046 to .026), better OWP (.565 to .505) and RCAA (147 to 28). __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

12-30-2003, 03:55 PM	#7
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	can i take MOISES alou? __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

12-31-2003, 08:00 AM	#9
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	I picked Felipe but he did a pretty quick fadeout, making it closer than it should be. Felipe was a better fielder and faster (not that I value SBs -because I don't value them unless the success rate is 75%+). __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

12-28-2003, 06:28 PM	#2
LeGrandOrange Membership Suspended 4/11/04 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 3,783	I picked Felipe Alou, but I show extreme bias towards Felipe. Felipe just appears to have had a better grasp on fundmanetals.

12-28-2003, 06:54 PM	#3
TimmyB NetShrine's Magic 8-Ball Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Where the cops speak slow and the air is nice Posts: 2,591	I'd give the whole ball of wax to Felipe, but his drop off in his last 4-5 seasons was pretty sharp. Carter, on the other hand, was able to maintain some respectable numbers nearly to the end. Alou is something like 40 points ahead of Carter in OPS vs. Lg Ave., and that includes the pretty lackluster '70s. Carter has the great WS moment and some decent power numbers (it's not like the guy was a bum or anything)... but I wonder if we'd even have this discussion if Felipe would have had one of his own.

12-29-2003, 02:58 PM	#5
Golden Bear NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,100	I hate to be simplistic, but Carter's got twice as many HR! Alou was a nice player, and the eras and ballparks earn him some extra credit, but I've got to go with Joe. Peaks are probably about the same, but Carter was good for much longer.

12-29-2003, 03:12 PM	#6
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	I would go with Felipe Alou. He was most likely the better fielder and his hitting was superior also.

12-30-2003, 05:53 PM	#8
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Sorry, gyb, not one of our choices today.

12-31-2003, 08:39 AM	#11
manny tortolero NetShrine MVP Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 298	I will go with Carter. Alou was a fine player by seven years (1962-1968) but his peaks never reached higher levels probably because he was hitting in the midlle lower of the lineup after the cleanup hitters first in SF (Mays, Cepeda and McCovey) and later in Atlanta (Aaron, Torre and Carty). But in that lapse of time he never played a complete season (only one time played 160 games) and spare part time of his defensive duties as 1B. After that period, his skills as outfielder was gone and in the next six years he was almost a mid time 1B with few offensive value. And he had a poor walk rate, not so bad as Carter's rate, but definitive bad.. In the other hand Carter was an iron-horse, playing 162 games in three seasons in a row, at least 155 games nine times and at least 139 games in 12 of his 16 seasons. He was a clock: between 1986 and 1997 (12 years) he averaged 29 hrs, 106 rbi and 15 SB per year! Yes, he never took a walk but probably because he understood that his work was be the cleanup hitter of the teams he played. In fact, a curious tip is that, in this 12 years period only other four team mates had 100+ rbi in the same team and only in three different years: Winfield (1992) Olerud and Molitor (1993), Sprague (1996). Any other of his team-mates reach the mark! And although he played 176 games as DH and 308 as 1B and his glove was average, his range as a corner outfielder was outstanding and kept him playing there 115 games in 1996 ,two years before his retire. And he was a nice runner with 78% of succesfull stealing bases! Including the adjustment by different eras, Carter was a most complete player than Alou.

12-31-2003, 10:10 AM	#12
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	In 1966, the Braves' first year in Atlanta, manager Bobby Bragan (and later Bill Hitchcock) had a bunch of power hitters like Hank Aaron, Eddie Mathews, Joe Torre, Mack Jones, and Rico Carty, but no real leadoff man. So, Felipe was installed as a leadoff man. Not your typical top-of-the-order guy, but he hit .327 with 31 homers, and scored 122 runs. Felipe played 484 career games in CF. Joe Carter played 432.

12-31-2003, 11:52 AM	#13
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	Joe Carter is getting a bum rap here. Alou's 147 to 28 edge in RCAA shows he's much better at putting runs on the scoreboard. For OBA vs. the league average, Carter's -.028 to +.002 edge shows he was far superior in out making. That raises the question of what is better, outmaking or run producing. As much as it pains me to say this, I have to concede the outmaking has more practical benefits. By making outs, innings end quicker, which leads itself to all sort of benefits-- 1) You can get to the fridge quicker. 2) You can get to the bathroom quicker. 3) If you're watching in a room without Internet access, or at the game, the quicker the game ends, the quicker you can stop by and visit NDF. 4) The less runs your team scores, the less games your team wins, which reduces championship hopes, which reduces the chances that your personal bank account will take a hit with championship memoribilia, which then increases the chances that you will have more money in your pocket to get a SBE, to get Netshrine material and Will's upcoming book. What are the benefit of runs-- 1) They help you win games. By a 4-1 margin, outmaking has more practical benefits. Therefore, I extend a perpetual stupidity award to myself and to everyone else who writes derogatory things about outmakers. (But, seriously, I vote for Alou.) __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

12-31-2003, 04:23 PM	#14
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	you're right, lee, i'm changing my vote. only from moises to felipe alou (damn you, sweav) __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

12-31-2003, 04:36 PM	#15
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Hey, dude, Felipe was better than Moises, too. At least so far.

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