NDF 2003-04 Winter Fun - 1967 Award Winners – NL

[WiredTiger]

For the season referenced in the subject line of this thread, who would be your pick for Best Positional Player (Include defense and position played in your determination), Best Pitcher, Best First Year Player and any other topics of discussion from this season.

[WiredTiger]

Best Batter: Roberto Clemente
A very tight race. Richie Allen was also very good but played in fewer games than the other leaders. The media went with Cepeda but he looked like he was about the fourth best player that year. Aaron had a good year as always.

Best Pitcher: Jim Bunning
Was the best pitcher but was penalized for pitching for the mediocre Phillies. He was much better that year than Cy Young award winner Mike McCormick who was helped by a favorable park and a good team surrounding him

Best Rookie: Gary Nolan
Seaver won the award and had the better career but Nolan actually had a better year. He had a better ERA than seaver even though he pitched in the bandbox that was Crosley Field.

[sweaver]

Doin' the Win Shares thing...

Ron Santo (Chicago) 38, Roberto Clemente (Pittsburgh) 35, Hank Aaron (Atlanta) and Orlando Cepeda (St. Louis) 34, Lou Brock and Tim McCarver (both St. Louis) 30, Dick Allen (Philadelphia) and Jim Ray Hart (San Francisco) 29, Billy Williams (Chicago), Rusty Staub and Jim Wynn (Houston) 28 each.

Pitchers: Jim Bunning (Philadelphia) 25, Ted Abernathy (Cincinnati) 24, Phil Niekro (Atlanta), Fergie Jenkins (Chicago), and Tom Seaver (New York) 21 each, Mike McCormick and Gaylord Perry (San Francisco) 20. Gary Nolan had 19.

WARP3 scores for these guys; Perry 7.9, McCormick 7.2, Nolan 6.0, Seaver 7.8, Jenkins 7.5, Niekro 6.7, Abernathy 6.3, Bunning 9.1.

Also; Wynn 7.8, Staub 7.2, Williams 7.9, Hart 8.0, Allen 7.7, McCarver 8.7, Brock 7.9, Cepeda 10.0, Aaron 11.1, Clemente 11.0, Santo 13.0.

In the first year of the post-Koufax era, there was no real dominant pitcher. Jim Bunning was certainly the best one, and gets my vote. Bunning was 2nd in ERA, tied for 3rd in wins, first in innings and strikeouts. Niekro was better per inning, but started the year in the bullpen and didn't throw as many innings.

The best player in the league was Santo, but he led the league only in times on base and sac flies. The voters went for Cepeda, the top player on the pennant winners. With the benefit of today's statistical analysis, I pick Santo.

The top rookie was Seaver. Much as I would love to pick Gary Nolan, it was Tom Terrific all the way.

[gyb13]

as an aside - sweav, in what order do you put the warp scores???

[gyb13]

best hitter was definitely clemente:

NATIONAL LEAGUE 1967
RCAA                           RCAA      AVG      OBA      SLG      PA     
1    Roberto Clemente             64     .357     .400     .554      632   
T2   Hank Aaron                   55     .307     .369     .573      669   
T2   Orlando Cepeda               55     .325     .399     .524      644   
4    Dick Allen                   54     .307     .404     .566      540   
5    Ron Santo                    48     .300     .395     .512      697   

the factoring in of defense may bring these guys closer, esp Aaron and Santo... but i'll stick with Clemente

[gyb13]

i'll give the pitching nod to Bunning as well - ate up innings with quality. only other guy who had a claim would be Niekro:

NATIONAL LEAGUE 1967
RSAA                           RSAA      ERA       G       IP       SO     
1    Jim Bunning                  41     2.29       40    302        253   
2    Phil Niekro                  39     1.87       46    207        129   

[gyb13]

the three players who received RoY votes were pitchers:

NATIONAL LEAGUE 1967
RSAA                           RSAA      ERA       G       IP       SO     
4    Gary Nolan                   27     2.58       33    227        206   
11   Tom Seaver                   18     2.76       35    251        170   
12   Dick Hughes                  17     2.68       37    222        161   

seaver got the vote despite Nolan's better performance...he doesn't get my vote. gary nolan it is.

[sweaver]

Originally Posted by gyb13

as an aside - sweav, in what order do you put the warp scores???

Whatever order I feel like. It's often reverse order of the Win Shares.

Nolan may have had more RSAA, but that's largely a result of pitching for a better team, with a better defense. Seaver had the better year overall, if you take out the team context.

[gyb13]

Originally Posted by sweaver

Nolan may have had more RSAA, but that's largely a result of pitching for a better team, with a better defense. Seaver had the better year overall, if you take out the team context.

how is 36 more strikeouts in 24 less innings part of the team context?

[sweaver]

The 1967 Reds finished 87-75, in 4th place. The 1967 Mets were 61-101, in last (10th) place. My first point, Nolan had a better team behind him. The Reds defense had Tommy Harper, Vada Pinson, and Pete Rose in the outfield. Those guys could run down a lot of balls.

Player              Ag  G    ERA   W   L  SV  GS  GF  CG SHO   IP     H    R   ER   BB   HR  SO   BFP  WP HBP BK IBB
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+--+---+
SP  Gary Nolan          19  33   2.58  14   8  0  32   1   8   5  226.7  193   73   65   62  18  206  932   3   5  2   7

 Player              Ag  G    ERA   W   L  SV  GS  GF  CG SHO   IP     H    R   ER   BB   HR  SO   BFP  WP HBP BK IBB
---+-------------------+--+---+------+---+---+--+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+---+--+---+
SP  Tom Seaver          22  35   2.76  16  13  0  34   1  18   2  251.0  224   85   77   78  19  170 1029   5   5  0   6

Here is a full run stat line for each. Just looking at the DIPS, Nolan is a bit ahead on K rate, they are about even in BB rate and HR rate. Shea was about an average pitching park in 1967, Crosley Field was a hitters' park. So Nolan has more RSAA.

But Seaver was pitching in front of a lousy defense, which gave up far more hits than the defense behind Nolan. Seaver's outfield had a Tommy Davis with bad wheels in left, Cleon Jones in center and Ron Swoboda in RF. Bud Harrelson was at SS, but 34-year-old Ed Charles manned 3B, and some guy named Jerry Buchek played 2B.

Harrelson and Charles had above-average range factors, Buchek, Jones and Swoboda were about average, Davis was well below. Seaver was working in a much tougher environment.