NDF 2003-04 Winter Fun - 1984 Award Winners - AL

[WiredTiger]

We are going to mix it up a little bit and start throwing in some modern years. Also we have done away with manager of the year and comeback player of the year but feel free to chime in with your choices on those if you want. Let me know if we accidentally repeat a year.

For the season referenced in the subject line of this thread, who would be your pick for AL Best Positional Player (Include defense and position played in your determination), AL Best Pitcher, Best First Year in the AL Player and any other topics of discussion from the 1984 AL season.

[WiredTiger]

My choices...

Best Batter: Don Mattingly
This is a very tight contest. Mattingly had his first superior year in a pitcher's ballpark and was very good on defense too. Eddie Murray, Dave Winfield and Dewey Evans all could have won this award too.

Best Pitcher: Willie Hernandez
I think the voters got it right. Hernandez was the most valuable player in the league that year. 32 saves and 9 wins and an ERA under 2.00. Hernandez pitched 140 innings that year and was brilliant in almost every outing.

Best Rookie: Mark Langston
Alvin Davis won the award but going 17-10 on a lousy Mariners team is the better accomplishment in my mind.

[gyb13]

RCAA                           RCAA      AVG      OBA      SLG      PA     
1    Eddie Murray                 63     .306     .410     .509      705   
2    Don Mattingly                54     .343     .381     .537      662   
3    Dave Winfield                51     .340     .393     .515      626   
4    Cal Ripken                   49     .304     .374     .510      716   
5    Rickey Henderson             45     .293     .399     .458      597   
6    Dwight Evans                 43     .295     .388     .532      738   
T7   Kirk Gibson                  42     .282     .363     .516      611   
T7   Alvin Davis                  42     .284     .391     .497      678   
9    Mike Easler                  38     .313     .376     .516      666   
10   Kent Hrbek                   37     .311     .383     .522      635   

it's hard to go against my favorite player ever, so i'll try to make the case for him. despite 9 less rcaa than murray, they had virtually identical OPS, but mattingly had a much higher AVG. add to that his defensive advantage, and i'll support his case for top AL player in 1984.

of WT's other mentions (murray, winfield, evans), i can't agree with Dewey on that list....

[gyb13]

RSAA                           RSAA      ERA       G       IP       SO     
1    Bert Blyleven                40     2.87       33    245        170   
2    Dave Stieb                   35     2.83       35    267        198   
T3   Frank Viola                  29     3.21       35    257.2      149   
T3   Willie Hernandez             29     1.92       80    140.1      112   
5    Mike Boddicker               27     2.79       34    261.1      128   
6    Doyle Alexander              26     3.13       36    261.2      139   
7    Rich Dotson                  24     3.59       32    245.2      120   
8    Bud Black                    23     3.12       35    257        140   
T9   Ernie Camacho                21     2.43       69    100         48   
T9   Frank Tanana                 21     3.25       35    246.1      141   

sorry, wt, but i can't agree that Hernandez was the most valuable player in the league. i can't even agree that he was the top pitcher. to me, it looks like a two-headed race between Blyleven and Stieb. I'd vote for Stieb.

[gyb13]

looking at those receiving RoY votes:

RCAA                           RCAA      AVG      OBA      SLG      PA     
T7   Alvin Davis                  42     .284     .391     .497      678   
T33  Mike Young                   16     .252     .355     .431      470   
T96  Tim Teufel                   -1     .262     .349     .400      652   
T189 Kirby Puckett               -15     .296     .320     .336      583   

RSAA                           RSAA      ERA       G       IP       SO     
T14  Mark Langston                18     3.40       35    225        204  
T29  Al Nipper                    11     3.89       29    182.2       84   
T42  Ron Romanick                  7     3.76       33    229.2       87   
T59  Roger Clemens                 2     4.32       21    133.1      126    
T77  Mark Gubicza                 -2     4.05       29    189        111   

My vote has to go to Alvin Davis. Langston and Young can battle it out for silver.

[sweaver]

Here's the top Win Shares people:

Cal Ripken 37, Eddie Murray 33, Dwight Evans, Alan Trammell and Don Mattingly 29, Wade Boggs and Rickey Henderson 28, Robin Yount and Alvin Davis 27.

Skipping to pitchers, it's Dave Steib 25, Willie Hernandez and Dan Quisenberry 24, Mike Boddicker and Doyle Alexander 23.

Looking at WARP3, it's Ripken at 12.3, Murray at 11.4 (his top season), Evans 9.6, Trammell 9.3, Mattingly 9.7. Stieb scored 9.9, Hernandez 8.5, Quiz 7.3, Boddicker 8.7, Alexander 8.1.

I'll go with the comprehensive numbers and say Dave Steib was the top pitcher, Alvin Davis the top rookie.

Ripken's defensive value made him the best player in the league in 1984, as well as several other years. 2. Murray, 3. Mattingly, 4. Evans, 5. Trammell.

[JamesI]

MVP Eddie Eddie Eddie

Cy Young As much as I want to vote Boddicker, the winner is Steib.

Rookie hard to pass up Davis

[WiredTiger]

Originally Posted by gyb13

of WT's other mentions (murray, winfield, evans), i can't agree with Dewey on that list....

Dewey was near the top in hitting and I have always considered him a superior defensive player. His defense definitely closes the gap between him and Murray, Winfield and Mattingly. As Sweaver's Win Shares chart shows Evans combination of defense and offense carries him near to the top.

[WiredTiger]

As far as the top pitcher goes...

Hernandez had an ERA+ of 204 in 140 innings.

Steib had an ERA+ of a 145 in 267 innings.

It's the classic battle of value in relief pitchers versus starting pitchers. To me this is the one case where the relief pitcher wins out. Hernandez had a much better ERA and pitched only 127 innings less than Steib did. And remember the race was over by August with a large reason being the Hernandez and Aurelio Lopez were so good.

Funny enough Steib had a much better year the following year yet went 14-13 with a first place Blue Jays team. Showing how fickle a W-L record can be.

[WiredTiger]

What is interesting about the 1984 Tigers is none of their core players really had career years.

Key players in 1984 versus the rest of their careers
Parrish 8th best OPS+
Whitaker 10th best OPS+
Trammell 5th best OPS+
Lemon 4th best OPS+
Gibson 2nd best OPS+ (Gibson was the one guy that made a huge difference. This year was almost the equal of his MVP year)
Herndon 5th best OPS+
Evans 16th best OPS+

Everyone remembers Jack Morris' no-hitter in 1984 but he really struggled all year. He ended with an ERA+ of 109 thanks mostly to his early starts.

Dan Petry was the best starter and actually was the Tigers best starter over Morris in a lot of other years too. He had a good career going until he blew out his arm.

Milt Wilcox had a league average year. And the rest of the starting pitching was around the league average too.

What seperated the Tigers from everyone else was that their bullpen was awesome. Willie Hernandez and Aurelio Lopez combined to finish 19-4 with a 2.43 ERA in 277 innings.

Willie Hernandez was the difference maker that year in the AL.

[gyb13]

Originally Posted by WiredTiger

Dewey was near the top in hitting and I have always considered him a superior defensive player. His defense definitely closes the gap between him and Murray, Winfield and Mattingly. As Sweaver's Win Shares chart shows Evans combination of defense and offense carries him near to the top.

that's if you believe in WS' assessment of player defense. methinks jury is still out on that. but granted, it does close the gap. i just think it does so enough.

Originally Posted by WiredTiger

As far as the top pitcher goes...

Hernandez had an ERA+ of 204 in 140 innings.

Steib had an ERA+ of a 145 in 267 innings.

It's the classic battle of value in relief pitchers versus starting pitchers. To me this is the one case where the relief pitcher wins out. Hernandez had a much better ERA and pitched only 127 innings less than Steib did. And remember the race was over by August with a large reason being the Hernandez and Aurelio Lopez were so good.

well, if you wanna be consistent and look at WS, steib is ahead of hernandez, albeit marginally. it's the same argument as 2003 NL CYA - everyone thinks Gagne was the most dominant pitcher in the NL. he probably was. but his dominance in the # of innings he pitched didn't give him as much value as the top starters (Livan, Vazquez, Schmidt, Prior, Webb, etc)

[WiredTiger]

Originally Posted by gyb13

that's if you believe in WS' assessment of player defense. methinks jury is still out on that. but granted, it does close the gap. i just think it does so enough.

I think that Dewey's defense closes the gap but wouldn't put him over the top.

Originally Posted by gyb13

well, if you wanna be consistent and look at WS, steib is ahead of hernandez, albeit marginally. it's the same argument as 2003 NL CYA - everyone thinks Gagne was the most dominant pitcher in the NL. he probably was. but his dominance in the # of innings he pitched didn't give him as much value as the top starters (Livan, Vazquez, Schmidt, Prior, Webb, etc)

Steib was great that year but I still feel that Hernandez not only pitched better when he did pitch but he also meant more to his team. It's close enough that you could make arguements for both as well as Quisenberry and Boddicker.

[sweaver]

Guillermo was not used in the method of the modern closer, as he often pitched the 8th and sometimes the 7th. Sparky was kind of old-fashioned that way. And he was 32-for-32 in save opportunities. But I think his MVP was one of those "guy on the top team" awards. As WT showed, the Tigers season was truly a team effort, of a bunch of guys near their peaks having good seasons. In the 1985 Baseball Abstract, Bill James talked about the exceptional contribution of the Tigers' bench to their win.

But when it comes down to who was the best, I think it's Steib first, Blyleven 2nd, and Hernandez 3rd. Just like I think the top players were Ripken and Murray, even though the Orioles finished 5th (at 87-75). The Orioles didn't have a great supporting cast, but the Tigers did. The Orioles that won in 1983 all got old together, except for the top guys, and they dropped in a tough division.

Here's how the actual award voting went, from baseball-reference.com.
MVP

Place  Name  Team  First-place votes  Total points
1 Willie Hernandez  DET   16    306    
  2 Kent Hrbek        MIN    5    247                          
  3 Dan Quisenberry   KCR    5    235    
  4 Eddie Murray      BAL    2    197                                
  5 Don Mattingly     NYY    0    113                            
  6 Kirk Gibson       DET    0     96                        
  7 Tony Armas        BOS    0     87                     
  8 Dave Winfield     NYY    0     83                        
  9 Alan Trammell     DET    0     76                       
 10 Willie Wilson     KCR    0     61         
 11 Dwight Evans      BOS    0     39                        
 12 Alvin Davis       SEA    0     26                        
 13 Harold Baines     CHW    0     10                         
 13 Dave Kingman      OAK    0     10                        
 13 Jim Rice          BOS    0     10                        
 16 Lance Parrish     DET    0      8                     
 16 Willie Upshaw     TOR    0      8                    
 18 Brian Downing     CAL    0      6                          
 19 Steve Balboni     KCR    0      5                          
 19 George Bell       TOR    0      5                         
 19 Andre Thornton    CLE    0      5                        
 22 Buddy Bell        TEX    0      4                         
 22 Lloyd Moseby      TOR    0      4                               
 22 Dave Stieb        TOR    0      4       
 25 Juan Beniquez     CAL    0      2                     
 25 Mike Boddicker    BAL    0      2   
 27 Doyle Alexander   TOR    0      1    
 27 Cal Ripken Jr.    BAL    0      1                         

Cy Young

Place  Name   Team  First-place votes  Total points
 1 Willie Hernandez  DET   12     88    
  2 Dan Quisenberry   KCR    9     71    
  3 Bert Blyleven     CLE    4     45    
  4 Mike Boddicker    BAL    3     41   
  5 Dan Petry         DET    0      3   
  6 Frank Viola       MIN    0      2   
  7 Jack Morris       DET    0      1    
  7 Dave Stieb        TOR    0      1   

Rookie

Place   Name   Team  First-place votes  Total Points
 1 Alvin Davis       SEA   25    134                           
  2 Mark Langston     SEA    3     82      
  3 Kirby Puckett     MIN    0     23                      
  4 Tim Teufel        MIN    0      5                                
  5 Mike Young        BAL    0      3                           
  6 Roger Clemens     BOS    0      2    
  7 Mark Gubicza      KCR    0      1    
  7 Al Nipper         BOS    0      1     
  7 Ron Romanick      CAL    0      1

[gyb13]

just goes to show the idiocy of the voters:

how can 16 of them think Hernandez is the MVP, but only 12 think he's the top pitcher???

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Since the Cy Young Award has been in existence, a pitcher has led hisleague in both innings pitched and ERA+ 15 times, starting with Koufax, who led the majors in both categories in 1966 (the last year of the combined CYA).

The other pitchers to accomplish this feat were Carlton in '72 and '80, Stieb in '84, Gooden in '85, Scott in '86, Saberhagen in '89, Clemens in '91 and '97, Maddux from '92 through '95 and Johnson in '99 and '02.

These pitchers have all won the CYA except for Stieb in 1984, who finished 7th in voting.

There are a lot of things I don't know and a lot of things I'm not sure of. This is not one of those things: the voters were wrong. He was the best pitcher in the AL that season.