Bob Johnson

[manny tortolero]

I am a believer that if someone deserves to be included via Vet Comitte, at least, in the voting list, is him. Any comparison of his total carrer raw numbers, gives him better figures than Ken Williams, who was included in 2003 vet com list for example, and in the same range (a little ahead in my opinion) than Oliva or Minoso for comparisons with other outfielders.
Some people argue about his WWII years but there are others HOF players with those years in their resume which that handicap was not applyed. Some people argue about era adjustments, and that is true, but Johnson was playing practically all his carrer in a extremely tougher pitcher's park as Shibe ,that equalize this. Some people argue that he was not included during his better years in the MVP top ten but some forget that he was playing for one of the worst team in 30's decade surrounded by practically eight double A players in the worst times of Mack's A's. And, I am not sure but, probably be a mid-indian blood guy was not a great help for his cause in those years.
If someone looks totally forgot by the Vet Com, that is Bob Johnson.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

He's right up there with Will Clark, IMO. I don't think Will the Thrill belongs in either. But they were both fine players for over a decade.

There are worse players in the Hall of Fame. That's not a good reason to induct anyone, IMO.

[KCBOOMER]

Bob Johnson is not the only guy the Veteran's Committee has overlooked. Johnson is one of those guys who falls in the category of "some make it some don't" when it comes to the HoF. Of his ten best comps three of them made the HoF, but seven didn't.

All I can tell you Manny is that when humans do things by the ballot mistakes and omissions occur.

The strikes against Johnson would be a relatively short career, weak counting numbers for a corner outfielder, playing on bad club and during the war. The things in his favor are his strong quality numbers (OPW, OPS versus the league, and RCAA).

With the new VC you have zero chance of getting Johnson. I am not sure that group would let Babe Ruth in.

[WiredTiger]

Johnson would be a good bet for the HOF if he had played a few more years. I don't know the story of why he didn't make it to the majors until he was 27. Was he just stuck behind some good players?

[Wolf Hopper]

I was saying to Bob two years ago: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/...ead.php?t=1849

[KCBOOMER]

Lee has him in has one of the Baseball Immortals.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'll never say never on Bob Johnson, but there are guys ahead of him. I can't endorse his candidacy as of now.

Oliva and Minoso are much stronger candidates. Oliva was, for a two-year period, the best position player in the A.L., arguably, and Minoso is, IMO, clearly a HOFer, in that his late start was due to racism.

Johnson is somewhat similar to Minoso. I wonder WHY the late start on his career. If it was due to racism, I MIGHT be willing to give him some of the benefit I give to Minoso, in that he was kept from the big leagues beyond his control. I don't know why it took Johnson so long to reach the majors; I wonder if anyone here knows.

.

In trying to figure out the answer to this question of why “Indian Bob” Johnson isn’t in the Hall (which, intuitively, I think is a correct assessment), I stumbled onto a block-stat similarity with a big name who IS in the Hall (which, intuitively, I think is also a correct assessment): Dave Winfield.

I compared Bob and Dave from age 27 to 39. This represents Bob’s entire career (1933-45), but just a meaty chunk of Dave’s (excerpting 1979-91).

Totals, 27-39:
             G    AB     R    H    2B  3B   HR   RBI   BB
Bob       1863  6920  1239  2051  396  95  288  1283 1075
Dave      1755  6622  1046  1901  333  58  306  1181  745

Winfield, however, missed all of 1989, so his same-age numbers are shy one year of production. It was in looking at their simple yearly averages that I began to see a tight resemblance.

Season averages, 27-39:
             G    AB     R    H    2B  3B   HR   RBI   BB
Bob  (13)  143   532    95   158   30   7   22    99   83
Dave (12)  146   552    87   158   28   5   26    98   62

Let’s take a quick glance at a Hall of Fame “lock” stat-line, and the 20-year per-season average needed to get the numbers. Both Bob and Dave, from 27 to 39, clearly maintained that pace.

                R    H    2B   HR   RBI
Career       1500  3000  500  500  1500
20-yr. avg.    75   150   25   25    75

Both Bob and Dave led their leagues four times in TB7 stats: Bob (all in 1944) in OBA, OPS, OPS+ and BR+; Dave (all in 1979) in RBIs, OPS+, BR+ and TPR. Neither, however, ever won an MVP award.

Both were steady workmen. Although with few titles, both were routinely among the top-ten hitters in their leagues.

Top-Ten finishes, age 27-39 and total career:

           Tot ‘79-91    |   Tot  Top-100
           Bob   Dave    |  Dave   Career
All-Star     8    10     |    12      --
MVP voting   3     5     |     7      --
Avg.         2     4     |     5      --
OBA          4     3     |     3      Bob
Slugging    10     5     |     7      Bob
OPS          9     5     |     7      Bob
Games        4     2     |     3     Dave
At Bats      0     1     |     1     Dave
Runs         4     6     |     7     Dave
Hits         2     2     |     3     Dave
Tot Bases    8     7     |    10     Dave
Doubles      3     3     |     3     Dave
Triples      5     3     |     3      --
Home Runs   11     5     |     7     Dave
RBI          7     8     |    10    -Both-
Walks        9     2     |     2    -Both-
Stolen Base  1     0     |     0      --
OPS+        10     5     |     7      Bob
XB Hits      8     6     |     9    -Both-
Pwr/Spd      9     5     |     8     Dave
           ---   ---     |   ---
Totals     106    87     |   114

You’ll notice that the age 27-39 totals are less for Dave; but due to the increased number of players in his era vying for the same number of league titles, it may be argued that Dave’s top-ten finishes are relatively more valuable. (A look at more exact rankings might be more revealing.)

You’ll also notice above that Bob tends to have the edge in secondary stats (Avg., OPS, etc.) while Dave takes the lead in counting stats -- especially in Top-100 career rank.

(A side point of interest is that Bob was among the top-ten in strikeouts 10 times, Dave never; but Bob’s career K total is nowhere near the career leaders, whereas Dave ranks 17th all-time. Both players’ K stats reflect their eras: Bob had a moderate number, but in a low-strikeout era; Dave had a ton of a ton, but in an era when it was no big deal.)

Looking at some secondary stats, below, when adjusting for run environment (Lg.RG) each looks about a twin of the other.

Bob v. Dave, age 27-39
                                          |   #A:     #B:
                                          |   RG/    OPS/
       Avg.  OBA   Slg.  OPS   R/G  Lg.RG | Lg.RG   LG.RG    #Ax#B
Bob   .296  .393  .506   899  1.20   4.81 |  .249   18.69     4.7
Dave  .287  .359  .494   853  1.09   4.41 |  .248   19.34     4.8

So what’s the conclusion? Well, it’s pretty obvious: While neither Bob nor Dave, offensively, ever had a HUGE career year, each produced at a similar, solid and steady -- even above-average -- Hall-of-Famer pace. The difference is simply time in service. Both just punched the clock every day, went to work and did an excellent job -- Bob for 13 years, Dave for 22.

Dave had the equivalent of more than an additional third of his career both prior to and after ages 27 and 39 respectively. And while a few of those seasons were on par with his HoF pace, most were lesser seasons.

It’s as if Bob’s career was exactly the lean cut of Dave’s career, but, unlike Dave’s career, with neither the rim of fat around it, nor the spuds and veggies on the side. Just the pure, trimmed slab on a plate. Those extras, it appears, are important to HoF voters.

. . .

Regarding Bob not breaking into the majors until he was 27: From what I gathered from searches and studies (which wasn’t a whole lot), it had little if anything to do with racism (cf. Jim Thorpe, et al. of a generation before). I suspect (but won’t try to prove it here) that Bob’s delayed entry had more to do with the increasing tightening of the major league talent pool combined with the high percentage of independent minor league teams and leagues not affiliated with any MLB club, hence not as regularly scouted.

I think Bob’s problem, prior to his being discovered by Connie Mack, was just that he was off the radar screen. Bob was fiercely loyal to Connie throughout nearly all of his ten years with Philadelphia. By the time he finally broke with Mack, over money of course, he was, at 37, at the beginning of the end. And that coincided with the breakout of WWII.

Bob Johnson’s story may just be one of failed recognition and its compounding consequences: Unrecognized in his youth, delaying his start; unrecognized in his prime, playing for the second-division A’s; unrecognized as a veteran, coinciding with the diluted war years; unrecognized by the Hall, especially his secondary stats, the significance of many of which would not come to light for several years. His career featured none of what a HoF voter looks for, whether peak dominance, counting stats, career duration, league championships or flamboyance. As observed, he was a workman.

If Bob epitomizes the “also-ran,” he’s truly a great one.

.

[manny tortolero]

Originally Posted by Batman

.

In trying to figure out the answer to this question of why “Indian Bob” Johnson isn’t in the Hall (which, intuitively, I think is a correct assessment), I stumbled onto a block-stat similarity with a big name who IS in the Hall (which, intuitively, I think is also a correct assessment): Dave Winfield.

I compared Bob and Dave from age 27 to 39. This represents Bob’s entire career (1933-45), but just a meaty chunk of Dave’s (excerpting 1979-91).

Totals, 27-39:
             G    AB     R    H    2B  3B   HR   RBI   BB
Bob       1863  6920  1239  2051  396  95  288  1283 1075
Dave      1755  6622  1046  1901  333  58  306  1181  745

Winfield, however, missed all of 1989, so his same-age numbers are shy one year of production. It was in looking at their simple yearly averages that I began to see a tight resemblance.

Season averages, 27-39:
             G    AB     R    H    2B  3B   HR   RBI   BB
Bob  (13)  143   532    95   158   30   7   22    99   83
Dave (12)  146   552    87   158   28   5   26    98   62

Let’s take a quick glance at a Hall of Fame “lock” stat-line, and the 20-year per-season average needed to get the numbers. Both Bob and Dave, from 27 to 39, clearly maintained that pace.

                R    H    2B   HR   RBI
Career       1500  3000  500  500  1500
20-yr. avg.    75   150   25   25    75

Both Bob and Dave led their leagues four times in TB7 stats: Bob (all in 1944) in OBA, OPS, OPS+ and BR+; Dave (all in 1979) in RBIs, OPS+, BR+ and TPR. Neither, however, ever won an MVP award.

Both were steady workmen. Although with few titles, both were routinely among the top-ten hitters in their leagues.

Top-Ten finishes, age 27-39 and total career:

           Tot ‘79-91    |   Tot  Top-100
           Bob   Dave    |  Dave   Career
All-Star     8    10     |    12      --
MVP voting   3     5     |     7      --
Avg.         2     4     |     5      --
OBA          4     3     |     3      Bob
Slugging    10     5     |     7      Bob
OPS          9     5     |     7      Bob
Games        4     2     |     3     Dave
At Bats      0     1     |     1     Dave
Runs         4     6     |     7     Dave
Hits         2     2     |     3     Dave
Tot Bases    8     7     |    10     Dave
Doubles      3     3     |     3     Dave
Triples      5     3     |     3      --
Home Runs   11     5     |     7     Dave
RBI          7     8     |    10    -Both-
Walks        9     2     |     2    -Both-
Stolen Base  1     0     |     0      --
OPS+        10     5     |     7      Bob
XB Hits      8     6     |     9    -Both-
Pwr/Spd      9     5     |     8     Dave
           ---   ---     |   ---
Totals     106    87     |   114

You’ll notice that the age 27-39 totals are less for Dave; but due to the increased number of players in his era vying for the same number of league titles, it may be argued that Dave’s top-ten finishes are relatively more valuable. (A look at more exact rankings might be more revealing.)

You’ll also notice above that Bob tends to have the edge in secondary stats (Avg., OPS, etc.) while Dave takes the lead in counting stats -- especially in Top-100 career rank.

(A side point of interest is that Bob was among the top-ten in strikeouts 10 times, Dave never; but Bob’s career K total is nowhere near the career leaders, whereas Dave ranks 17th all-time. Both players’ K stats reflect their eras: Bob had a moderate number, but in a low-strikeout era; Dave had a ton of a ton, but in an era when it was no big deal.)

Looking at some secondary stats, below, when adjusting for run environment (Lg.RG) each looks about a twin of the other.

Bob v. Dave, age 27-39
                                          |   #A:     #B:
                                          |   RG/    OPS/
       Avg.  OBA   Slg.  OPS   R/G  Lg.RG | Lg.RG   LG.RG    #Ax#B
Bob   .296  .393  .506   899  1.20   4.81 |  .249   18.69     4.7
Dave  .287  .359  .494   853  1.09   4.41 |  .248   19.34     4.8

So what’s the conclusion? Well, it’s pretty obvious: While neither Bob nor Dave, offensively, ever had a HUGE career year, each produced at a similar, solid and steady -- even above-average -- Hall-of-Famer pace. The difference is simply time in service. Both just punched the clock every day, went to work and did an excellent job -- Bob for 13 years, Dave for 22.

Dave had the equivalent of more than an additional third of his career both prior to and after ages 27 and 39 respectively. And while a few of those seasons were on par with his HoF pace, most were lesser seasons.

It’s as if Bob’s career was exactly the lean cut of Dave’s career, but, unlike Dave’s career, with neither the rim of fat around it, nor the spuds and veggies on the side. Just the pure, trimmed slab on a plate. Those extras, it appears, are important to HoF voters.

. . .

Regarding Bob not breaking into the majors until he was 27: From what I gathered from searches and studies (which wasn’t a whole lot), it had little if anything to do with racism (cf. Jim Thorpe, et al. of a generation before). I suspect (but won’t try to prove it here) that Bob’s delayed entry had more to do with the increasing tightening of the major league talent pool combined with the high percentage of independent minor league teams and leagues not affiliated with any MLB club, hence not as regularly scouted.

I think Bob’s problem, prior to his being discovered by Connie Mack, was just that he was off the radar screen. Bob was fiercely loyal to Connie throughout nearly all of his ten years with Philadelphia. By the time he finally broke with Mack, over money of course, he was, at 37, at the beginning of the end. And that coincided with the breakout of WWII.

Bob Johnson’s story may just be one of failed recognition and its compounding consequences: Unrecognized in his youth, delaying his start; unrecognized in his prime, playing for the second-division A’s; unrecognized as a veteran, coinciding with the diluted war years; unrecognized by the Hall, especially his secondary stats, the significance of many of which would not come to light for several years. His career featured none of what a HoF voter looks for, whether peak dominance, counting stats, career duration, league championships or flamboyance. As observed, he was a workman.

If Bob epitomizes the “also-ran,” he’s truly a great one.

.

Thanks for this analisis, I really enjoyed. Never had in mind compare Johnson with Winfield and found how much they were similars as players, although Johnson was a little more disciplinated hitter at the plate and Winfield was more complete as athlete, including speed.
Your last parragraph tell me that Bob Johnson, beside guys as Charlie Keller, Hal Trostky or Minnie Minoso (between others) ,belongs to the list of players that played their carrer as a HOF their but are not there by their bad luck (injuries, short carrers because a delayed start, etc). BTW, in the post where Bernie Williams is compared with Earl Averill, is incredible the similarity of numbers between Averill and Johnson.
Actually Averill played the same years and era of Johnson and I only found as difference that Averill was a good CF the only reason because he got the ticket in.

.

Re. Johnson v. Averill (v. Minoso v. Keller v. Trosky)...

Manny -- Interesting batch of names. Both Averill and Johnson played 13 years but four years apart: Earl 1929-1941; Bob 1933-1945. Although that’s pretty close, seemingly indistinguishable, on a time line, each guy’s player-specific run environment (Lg.RG) was slightly different: Earl 5.17; Bob 4.81. Earl hit in a slightly richer run environment, which matches with the fact that he quit right before WWII, when both leagues’ run environments dropped off. Incidentally, according to TB7 (Fielding Runs), Bob was also a better fielder that Earl.

I like Charlie Keller a lot, but over his 13 seasons (1939-1952) he had only six years in which he played more than a hundred games, three of those (arguably his best) from 1941-43, so there’s that discount-for-war stigma attached to those numbers. I go along with the Hall’s 10-year requirement; Charlie fulfills that technically, but not in substance (only 1170 career games). His OPS+ of 152 is just a few points back of a couple of guys named Mays and DiMaggio. What if....

Trosky’s a similar story, maintaining that HoF pace but, like Johnson, just not for long enough. Hal wasn’t even 29 when he went to war; and the stats don’t show him coming back quite the same. What if....

Minoso is a similar story again, sort of. He lost a lot of valuable time off the front-end of his career due to his deep tan. He was runner-up to Gil McDougald in 1951 for Rookie of the Year. Minnie turned 29 that year. What if....

If I had to order these five on the steps leading up to Cooperstown, I’d line them up this way:

1. Bob Johnson
2. Minnie Minoso
3. Earl Averill
4. Hal Trosky
5. Charlie Keller

I don’t think they’d let any of us in today without a ticket. But a six-pack on the porch divvies up well.

Thanks for starting the Indian Bob thread. Ha! You made me look.

.

[Fuzzy Bear]

I'm hoping someone can find Bob Johnson's minor league stats.

I hope someone can find the reason he was not promoted to the majors earlier. (I realize the free minor leagues were still alive, somewhat, in his 25 and under days.)

That said, I doubt I could advocate his selection for the HOF unless you could show me that he was prevented from advancing to the major leagues due to racism.

You can make that case with Minoso; I've never seen anyone make that case with Johnson.

[SmedIndy]

Santo and Dahlen for two are way ahead of him in "Cooperstown is a sham if they're not in". There may be others - but it's late and I can't think.