The shift (merged threads)

Wolf Hopper · 04-01-2003, 08:06 AM

We all know that Barry Bonds gets the shift - - - three INF on the right side, one in short RF.

Now, the do it on Giambi. And, last night, the Yankees did it on Delgado.

Pretty sure the Angels did it to Palmeiro on Sunday.

Do they do it to Thome? Shawn Green? McGriff?

Anyone else?

Is this now the standard defense for a LH power hitter?

WiredTiger · 04-01-2003, 08:29 AM

I've definitely seen the shift put on for Jim Thome.

Gosfgiants · 04-01-2003, 01:02 PM

I saw the shift put on Troy Glaus by the A's last year. I think that's the only right hander I've seen it used on.

Duque · 04-02-2003, 12:05 AM

I think Green hits enough to the opposite field to not warrant a shift, but then, Giambi isn't such a bad opposite field hitter either.
Either way, I'm not big on its effectiveness.

Glyndwr · 04-02-2003, 03:18 PM

Delgado has been being shifted for the last couple of years, and it has been a pretty extreme shift most of the time too. I do not remember Green ever getting this when he was here.

The Jays had a 'semi-shift' on Thome last year, I can't remember seeing it being used on anyone else apart from Delgado, Giambi and Thome.

JamesI · 04-02-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Duque
I think Green hits enough to the opposite field to not warrant a shift, but then, Giambi isn't such a bad opposite field hitter either.
Either way, I'm not big on its effectiveness.

I agree here. I don't think this is any more effective than just playing normal defense.

gyb13 · 04-02-2003, 03:26 PM

i wonder if anyone has done an analysis on this...

Glyndwr · 04-06-2003, 11:44 AM

A couple of shift related incidents for Delgado against the Twins last night. In the 4th (I think) the Twins had an uber-shift on - Koskie was playing about 5 yards from second. Delgado popped up to a few yards behind the third base coaches box - safe. Tom prince charging from behind the plate got closer to it that Koskie did.

A few innings later Delgado squared around and bunted, unfortunately he chose a Santana breaking ball and it went foul. That is the first time I have seen Delgado alter his approach at the plate to account for the shift, and it instantly brought Koskie back 10 yards so nearer the third base bag.

I never understand why the hitters will not take the easy single the opposite way.

Wolf Hopper · 04-06-2003, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Glyndwr
I never understand why the hitters will not take the easy single the opposite way.

Agreed - they only need to attempt it once a game to keep the filders honest.

Ytown Tribe fan · 04-06-2003, 01:26 PM

It may sound funny, but I believe that the shift should be used more often against a weak hitter, especially a weak dead-pull hitter.

A great hitter will adapt to anything. Thome pulls the ball when he thinks he can hit a homer, and no shift in the world will stop a homer. Like many fine hitters, he has learned to use more of the field because of the defensive shifts used against him.

A weaker, pull hitter like Diaz could be shut down completely by using a dramatic shift.

Practically the only damage that Diaz does is by pulling the ball down the left-field line. He gets a bunch of doubles that way, and that accounts for nearly ALL of his production. A shift against him would cut his BA and slugging in HALF.

Yep, for my money, dramatic shifts should be used against weaker hitters to shut them down completely, since they can't adapt as well as really good hitters.

LisaG · 04-06-2003, 02:57 PM

glyndwr, i've wondered the same thing about the single the opposite way. i don't believe a good hitter CAN'T do it. saw barry do it more than once last year. but maybe i'm wrong (barry being the exception, as usual). can a "good" hitter not pull the ball if he wants to? maybe they think if they're going to hit a single away, they they wouldn't swing for the fences

and ytown, not being an AL fan, i hadn't noticed what you say about diaz. but since it's so, why NOT guard the line?

Gosfgiants · 04-06-2003, 03:05 PM

I don't think it's that easy to just go the other way. I think pitchers are going to pitch to the defense. I doubt that hitters see many pitches middle away with the shift on.

WiredTiger · 10-10-2003, 09:37 AM

Watching Jason Giambi the other day got me to thinking. With players who get a big time shift to the right side wouldn't it be prudent to drop down a bunt down the third baseline every once in awhile?

Giambi was up with no outs and nobody on. Drop a bunt down the third baseline and that's an easy single.

KCBOOMER · 10-10-2003, 09:48 AM

This is probably mentioned everytime a hitter faces an exaggerated shift. Usually the guy facing such a shift is a major offensive force and considers it beneath him to bunt. I can't remember a case where a hitter actually did bunt. A bunt isn't much better than a walk so hitters will almost always swing away.

But, on innumerable cases hitters have tried, frequently successfully, to hit the ball to the weak side. A routine grounder can be an extra base hit in such circumstances.

TimmyB · 10-10-2003, 10:18 AM

Ego can be a devastating thing in these cases.

Of course, getting a single right through the teeth of a shift does nothing to slow the hitter, in this case, Giambi, down.

04-01-2003, 08:06 AM	#1
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Who Gets Shifted? We all know that Barry Bonds gets the shift - - - three INF on the right side, one in short RF. Now, the do it on Giambi. And, last night, the Yankees did it on Delgado. Pretty sure the Angels did it to Palmeiro on Sunday. Do they do it to Thome? Shawn Green? McGriff? Anyone else? Is this now the standard defense for a LH power hitter? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

04-01-2003, 01:02 PM	#3
Gosfgiants NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,136	I saw the shift put on Troy Glaus by the A's last year. I think that's the only right hander I've seen it used on. __________________ It'll always be Pacbell Park Beat LA!!!

04-02-2003, 12:05 AM	#4
Duque NetShrine's Desperado Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Southern CA Posts: 2,638	I think Green hits enough to the opposite field to not warrant a shift, but then, Giambi isn't such a bad opposite field hitter either. Either way, I'm not big on its effectiveness. __________________ Bad Andy It's such a fine line between stupid and clever.

04-02-2003, 03:26 PM	#7
gyb13 NS Omnipresent Brasilian Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Crazy George's playground Posts: 10,903	i wonder if anyone has done an analysis on this... __________________ Gustavo NDF Moderator Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

04-06-2003, 01:26 PM	#10
Ytown Tribe fan Guest Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scrappers territory Posts: 2,515	Einar Diaz It may sound funny, but I believe that the shift should be used more often against a weak hitter, especially a weak dead-pull hitter. A great hitter will adapt to anything. Thome pulls the ball when he thinks he can hit a homer, and no shift in the world will stop a homer. Like many fine hitters, he has learned to use more of the field because of the defensive shifts used against him. A weaker, pull hitter like Diaz could be shut down completely by using a dramatic shift. Practically the only damage that Diaz does is by pulling the ball down the left-field line. He gets a bunch of doubles that way, and that accounts for nearly ALL of his production. A shift against him would cut his BA and slugging in HALF. Yep, for my money, dramatic shifts should be used against weaker hitters to shut them down completely, since they can't adapt as well as really good hitters.

04-01-2003, 08:29 AM	#2
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	I've definitely seen the shift put on for Jim Thome.

04-02-2003, 03:18 PM	#5
Glyndwr Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 162	Delgado has been being shifted for the last couple of years, and it has been a pretty extreme shift most of the time too. I do not remember Green ever getting this when he was here. The Jays had a 'semi-shift' on Thome last year, I can't remember seeing it being used on anyone else apart from Delgado, Giambi and Thome.

04-06-2003, 11:44 AM	#8
Glyndwr Guest Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 162	A couple of shift related incidents for Delgado against the Twins last night. In the 4th (I think) the Twins had an uber-shift on - Koskie was playing about 5 yards from second. Delgado popped up to a few yards behind the third base coaches box - safe. Tom prince charging from behind the plate got closer to it that Koskie did. A few innings later Delgado squared around and bunted, unfortunately he chose a Santana breaking ball and it went foul. That is the first time I have seen Delgado alter his approach at the plate to account for the shift, and it instantly brought Koskie back 10 yards so nearer the third base bag. I never understand why the hitters will not take the easy single the opposite way.

04-06-2003, 02:57 PM	#11
LisaG All-NetShrine Team Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: texas Posts: 371	glyndwr, i've wondered the same thing about the single the opposite way. i don't believe a good hitter CAN'T do it. saw barry do it more than once last year. but maybe i'm wrong (barry being the exception, as usual). can a "good" hitter not pull the ball if he wants to? maybe they think if they're going to hit a single away, they they wouldn't swing for the fences and ytown, not being an AL fan, i hadn't noticed what you say about diaz. but since it's so, why NOT guard the line?

04-06-2003, 03:05 PM	#12
Gosfgiants NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 1,136	I don't think it's that easy to just go the other way. I think pitchers are going to pitch to the defense. I doubt that hitters see many pitches middle away with the shift on. __________________ It'll always be Pacbell Park Beat LA!!!

10-10-2003, 09:37 AM	#13
WiredTiger Guest Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The city of Kaline, Cobb and Greenberg Posts: 3,395	The shift Watching Jason Giambi the other day got me to thinking. With players who get a big time shift to the right side wouldn't it be prudent to drop down a bunt down the third baseline every once in awhile? Giambi was up with no outs and nobody on. Drop a bunt down the third baseline and that's an easy single.

10-10-2003, 09:48 AM	#14
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	This is probably mentioned everytime a hitter faces an exaggerated shift. Usually the guy facing such a shift is a major offensive force and considers it beneath him to bunt. I can't remember a case where a hitter actually did bunt. A bunt isn't much better than a walk so hitters will almost always swing away. But, on innumerable cases hitters have tried, frequently successfully, to hit the ball to the weak side. A routine grounder can be an extra base hit in such circumstances. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

10-10-2003, 10:18 AM	#15
TimmyB NetShrine's Magic 8-Ball Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Where the cops speak slow and the air is nice Posts: 2,591	Ego can be a devastating thing in these cases. Of course, getting a single right through the teeth of a shift does nothing to slow the hitter, in this case, Giambi, down.

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