Mike Mussina: Lack of Heart?

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 07:28 AM

Earlier this week - I think it was Tuesday AM - I was listening to the Michael Kay Show on ESPN Radio in NYC.

He was ripping into the Yankees for moving the date of Mussina's last start - in order to set him up to pitch games 1 and 5 of the ALDS.

Kay was keying in on things like (not exact quotes, but close to it) - - "He's never won 20 games in a season" and "He comes out of games based on his pitch count regardless of the score, situation, or team needs" and "He's never pitched a big pressure game."

On the last one, he talked about the 'must win' game that Mussina pitched against the A's in a recent ALDS at Oakland and said there was really no pressure on Mussina that day - because had he lost, he could have pointed to the other losses in the series by the Yanks and said they were just as crippling, if not more.

Basically, what Kay was saying about Mussina - without coming straight out and saying it - was that it was his opinion that Mussina lacks the heart and intestinal fortitude (as in guts) needed to be the guy to pitch games one and the last game of a big series.

He said that he would rather see any other current Yankee starter in that situation.

In your opinion, do you agree with Kay on Mussina or not? Why?

satchel · 09-26-2003, 08:06 AM

From the moment Mussina joined the Yankees, Michael Kay's shtick has been to criticize him. It's as if Kay just said, "I don't like this guy, so to prove that I am a journalist and not a homer, I'll say negative things about him at every opportunity."

Whatever.

Mussina is a great pitcher and I have no reason to believe he doesn't take his job seriously. So he doesn't talk smack, pump his fist on the mound, or spout cliche - it doesn't follow that he has no guts or no interest in winning.

As for Kay's other criticisms, he's pitched more innings than any other Yankees starter this season and completed more games than any except Wells. And regarding his win totals - again, whatever. If Kay wants to go on record as saying that Mussina doesn't know how to win, or whatever such claptrap people who wave win totals around claim, he's welcome to. It doesn't change the fact that Mussina is a great pitcher.

The Yankees have the luxury of having 3-4 starters that would unquestionably be starting games 1 and 5 for most teams. I don't think Mussina is a worse choice than any other; I think he may be a clearly better choice than any other save possibly Pettitte.

And if the Yankees face the Red Sox in the second round, this Yankees fan would want to Mussina against Pedro, over any other starter.

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 10:08 AM

FWIW, a few callers into the show asked Kay if this was personal - and to Kay's credit, he did share that he and Mussina do not talk to each other and have not exchanged even as much as a "hello" in the last two years. Kay then added that he "hoped" he was being objective about this and that he was not intentionally allowing his personal opinions about Mussina to form this opinion.

Now, to my opinion, and this is just opinion - I have no fact to base it on - - I loved Mussina as a pitcher when he was on the O's. Heck, he carried my fantasy teams (back when I played) for years.

But, as Yankee, now that I get to see him pitch 30 something times a year, there's a feeling I have - it's hard to describe - but, if I had to try and describe it, I would say: He's an excellent pitcher - the stats prove this - but, he always seems to be "just excellent enough to lose."

It always seems that once they score for him, he always lets the other team back into the game - like in his last start. I know the numbers probably don't back this up - it's just a feeling that I get whenever he pitchers. 100% subjective on my part - and therefore not fair. Unless you go by the belief that perception is reality.

pwdennis · 09-26-2003, 10:46 AM

So Mussina's not a rah-rah type. I've found that a lot of the rah-rah types are phonies anyway . Mussina's an excellent pitcher and I sure would like to see him as the Bosox #3 or 4 starter instead of Burkett or some of the other warm bodies who have started games for Boston

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 10:54 AM

This might have something to do with my "excellent enough to lose" perception:

Code:

AMERICAN LEAGUE 2000-2002 Wins over Lge. Avg Leaders

WINS >= 30

WINS                            DIFF   PLAYER   LEAGUE      W     
T1   Barry Zito                   17       47       30       47   
T1   Andy Pettitte                17       47       30       47   
3    Mark Mulder                  16       49       33       49   
T4   Pedro Martinez               15       45       30       45   
T4   Tim Hudson                   15       53       38       53   
6    David Wells                  14       44       30       44   
7    Jamie Moyer                  13       46       33       46   
8    Roger Clemens                12       46       34       46   
T9   Mark Buehrle                 10       39       29       39   
T9   Freddy Garcia                10       43       33       43   
11   Bartolo Colon                 9       39       30       39   
T12  Jarrod Washburn               9       36       27       36   
T12  John Halama                   9       30       21       30   
14   C.C. Sabathia                 8       30       22       30   
T15  Eric Milton                   8       41       33       41   
T15  Mike Mussina                  8       46       38       46   
17   Derek Lowe                    7       30       23       30   
18   Aaron Sele                    7       40       33       40   
19   Ramon Ortiz                   6       36       30       36   
20   Brad Radke                    4       36       32       36

sweaver · 09-26-2003, 11:08 AM

Mussina has pitched in 11 postseason games in 8 different series over the course of 4 years: 1996-97, and 2001-02. He has a 4-2 record and a 2.93 ERA in those 11 games.

If that's a gutless pitcher, give me a staff of gutless pitchers.

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Mussina has pitched in 11 postseason games in 8 different series over the course of 4 years: 1996-97, and 2001-02. He has a 4-2 record and a 2.93 ERA in those 11 games.

4 wins out of 11 tries is that good?

Pettitte has pitched in 25 post season games since 1995 and has won 10.
David Wells has pitched in 11 post season games since 1995 and has won 8.
Clemens has pitched in 13 post season games since 1999 and has won 5.

sweaver · 09-26-2003, 11:47 AM

Clemens' postseason record is 6-6 with a 3.46 ERA. Wells' postseason record is 8-2 with a 3.40 ERA. Pettitte's postseason record is 10-7, but with a 4.49 ERA. Yeah, I'll take 4-2, 2.93.

TimmyB · 09-26-2003, 11:56 AM

While I don't know if Mussina is the right guy to be the Games 1 & 5 starter, to suggest the guy doesn't have the guts to pitch in a big game...

This is why we must all be very cautious around sport's radio.

Mussina has only the 15th best WOLA over the past couple years. Jeez. Shoot him.

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweaver

Clemens' postseason record is 6-6 with a 3.46 ERA. Wells' postseason record is 8-2 with a 3.40 ERA. Pettitte's postseason record is 10-7, but with a 4.49 ERA. Yeah, I'll take 4-2, 2.93.

Like I said - 2.93 is excellent - but, again, based on the W column, just excellent enough to lose...........

KCBOOMER · 09-26-2003, 12:03 PM

Getting sports ideas/opinions from sports talk radio is just goofy. Mussina is just fine.

Skip · 09-26-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Like I said - 2.93 is excellent - but, again, based on the W column, just excellent enough to lose...........

Based on the L column, ... not.

Wolf Hopper · 09-26-2003, 12:12 PM

NDs are like Ls in that they are not a W.

nyy26wc · 09-26-2003, 12:48 PM

This is just like any other story with "intangibles."

If the Yankees win a World Series, Kay will start referring to Mussina as a good intangibler. If they don't, it's not because of anything tangible, it's got to be negative intangibles.

And if I believed in intangibles, the fact that Kay is the one making the statement would make me believe that Mussina was the greater intangibler of all time.

TimmyB · 09-26-2003, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolf Hopper

Like I said - 2.93 is excellent - but, again, based on the W column, just excellent enough to lose...........

His numbers are similar to Clemens' post-season numbers, though, aren't they?

09-26-2003, 07:28 AM	#1
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	Mike Mussina: Lack of Heart? Earlier this week - I think it was Tuesday AM - I was listening to the Michael Kay Show on ESPN Radio in NYC. He was ripping into the Yankees for moving the date of Mussina's last start - in order to set him up to pitch games 1 and 5 of the ALDS. Kay was keying in on things like (not exact quotes, but close to it) - - "He's never won 20 games in a season" and "He comes out of games based on his pitch count regardless of the score, situation, or team needs" and "He's never pitched a big pressure game." On the last one, he talked about the 'must win' game that Mussina pitched against the A's in a recent ALDS at Oakland and said there was really no pressure on Mussina that day - because had he lost, he could have pointed to the other losses in the series by the Yanks and said they were just as crippling, if not more. Basically, what Kay was saying about Mussina - without coming straight out and saying it - was that it was his opinion that Mussina lacks the heart and intestinal fortitude (as in guts) needed to be the guy to pitch games one and the last game of a big series. He said that he would rather see any other current Yankee starter in that situation. In your opinion, do you agree with Kay on Mussina or not? Why? __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

09-26-2003, 08:06 AM	#2
satchel NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 2,601	From the moment Mussina joined the Yankees, Michael Kay's shtick has been to criticize him. It's as if Kay just said, "I don't like this guy, so to prove that I am a journalist and not a homer, I'll say negative things about him at every opportunity." Whatever. Mussina is a great pitcher and I have no reason to believe he doesn't take his job seriously. So he doesn't talk smack, pump his fist on the mound, or spout cliche - it doesn't follow that he has no guts or no interest in winning. As for Kay's other criticisms, he's pitched more innings than any other Yankees starter this season and completed more games than any except Wells. And regarding his win totals - again, whatever. If Kay wants to go on record as saying that Mussina doesn't know how to win, or whatever such claptrap people who wave win totals around claim, he's welcome to. It doesn't change the fact that Mussina is a great pitcher. The Yankees have the luxury of having 3-4 starters that would unquestionably be starting games 1 and 5 for most teams. I don't think Mussina is a worse choice than any other; I think he may be a clearly better choice than any other save possibly Pettitte. And if the Yankees face the Red Sox in the second round, this Yankees fan would want to Mussina against Pedro, over any other starter. __________________ Rare mold, old vomit - An anagram rejected by Tom Riddle

09-26-2003, 10:46 AM	#4
pwdennis NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winter Springs, FL Posts: 2,503	So Mussina's not a rah-rah type. I've found that a lot of the rah-rah types are phonies anyway . Mussina's an excellent pitcher and I sure would like to see him as the Bosox #3 or 4 starter instead of Burkett or some of the other warm bodies who have started games for Boston __________________ "I would submit that if the world survives for a million years, perhaps its finest hour may be that in the last half of the 20th century, when the power to blow up the world rested in the hands of a few men in two very unsophisticated and suspicious countries, we didn't do it, and one American, Richard Nixon, moved the cold war away from permanent confrontation toward victory. How could any wrong that he did compare with that?" - John Sears

09-26-2003, 10:54 AM	#5
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	This might have something to do with my "excellent enough to lose" perception: Code: AMERICAN LEAGUE 2000-2002 Wins over Lge. Avg Leaders WINS >= 30 WINS DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE W T1 Barry Zito 17 47 30 47 T1 Andy Pettitte 17 47 30 47 3 Mark Mulder 16 49 33 49 T4 Pedro Martinez 15 45 30 45 T4 Tim Hudson 15 53 38 53 6 David Wells 14 44 30 44 7 Jamie Moyer 13 46 33 46 8 Roger Clemens 12 46 34 46 T9 Mark Buehrle 10 39 29 39 T9 Freddy Garcia 10 43 33 43 11 Bartolo Colon 9 39 30 39 T12 Jarrod Washburn 9 36 27 36 T12 John Halama 9 30 21 30 14 C.C. Sabathia 8 30 22 30 T15 Eric Milton 8 41 33 41 T15 Mike Mussina 8 46 38 46 17 Derek Lowe 7 30 23 30 18 Aaron Sele 7 40 33 40 19 Ramon Ortiz 6 36 30 36 20 Brad Radke 4 36 32 36 __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

09-26-2003, 12:03 PM	#11
KCBOOMER NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Home of the T-Bones Posts: 11,116	Getting sports ideas/opinions from sports talk radio is just goofy. Mussina is just fine. __________________ KCBOOMER *Buck O'Neil: The Monarch of Baseball*

09-26-2003, 10:08 AM	#3
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	FWIW, a few callers into the show asked Kay if this was personal - and to Kay's credit, he did share that he and Mussina do not talk to each other and have not exchanged even as much as a "hello" in the last two years. Kay then added that he "hoped" he was being objective about this and that he was not intentionally allowing his personal opinions about Mussina to form this opinion. Now, to my opinion, and this is just opinion - I have no fact to base it on - - I loved Mussina as a pitcher when he was on the O's. Heck, he carried my fantasy teams (back when I played) for years. But, as Yankee, now that I get to see him pitch 30 something times a year, there's a feeling I have - it's hard to describe - but, if I had to try and describe it, I would say: He's an excellent pitcher - the stats prove this - but, he always seems to be "just excellent enough to lose." It always seems that once they score for him, he always lets the other team back into the game - like in his last start. I know the numbers probably don't back this up - it's just a feeling that I get whenever he pitchers. 100% subjective on my part - and therefore not fair. Unless you go by the belief that perception is reality. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

09-26-2003, 11:08 AM	#6
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Mussina has pitched in 11 postseason games in 8 different series over the course of 4 years: 1996-97, and 2001-02. He has a 4-2 record and a 2.93 ERA in those 11 games. If that's a gutless pitcher, give me a staff of gutless pitchers.

09-26-2003, 11:47 AM	#8
sweaver Netshrine Cleanup Hitter Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Mountain State Posts: 8,883	Clemens' postseason record is 6-6 with a 3.46 ERA. Wells' postseason record is 8-2 with a 3.40 ERA. Pettitte's postseason record is 10-7, but with a 4.49 ERA. Yeah, I'll take 4-2, 2.93.

09-26-2003, 11:56 AM	#9
TimmyB NetShrine's Magic 8-Ball Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Where the cops speak slow and the air is nice Posts: 2,591	While I don't know if Mussina is the right guy to be the Games 1 & 5 starter, to suggest the guy doesn't have the guts to pitch in a big game... This is why we must all be very cautious around sport's radio. Mussina has only the 15th best WOLA over the past couple years. Jeez. Shoot him.

09-26-2003, 12:12 PM	#13
Wolf Hopper NetShrine Creator & Curator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: NetShrine WHQ Posts: 6,191	NDs are like Ls in that they are not a W. __________________ Steve, Forum Administrator POSTING TIP FOR THE DAY: When composing a post, think about what you would say if the intended recipient was an individual who was actually sitting just two feet in front of you, in person, rather than just some far away and anonymous audience who only can identify you as text on a PC screen - - and then write your post in that manner. It makes for remarkable and sincere discourse.

09-26-2003, 12:48 PM	#14
nyy26wc NetShrine All-Century Team Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: NJ Posts: 14,584	This is just like any other story with "intangibles." If the Yankees win a World Series, Kay will start referring to Mussina as a good intangibler. If they don't, it's not because of anything tangible, it's got to be negative intangibles. And if I believed in intangibles, the fact that Kay is the one making the statement would make me believe that Mussina was the greater intangibler of all time. __________________ Lee Creator, Complete Baseball Encyclopedia. It's powerful, yet extremely easy to use. Features extensive sorting and stat display options. The CBE has many features that are not available in online and printed sources. Has 2006 stats and daily update service for 2007.

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