Pedro Martinez or Sandy Koufax?

[sweaver]

Who do you think was better? Pedro or Koufax?

[SmedIndy]

Can you ask me in five years?

[RedSeat]

Looks to me that Pedro already has had both a longer and higher "peak".

You look at Koufax from '61 to '66 and Pedro from '94 to '02 and I think you'd see that Pedro has maintained a high level of performance longer and his '99 an '00 were both better than Koufax' best, in my opinion.

It surprised me the first time I looked at the numbers side by side.

[nyy26wc]

Don't disparage Martinez by lowering him to Koufax's standard.

Martinez has more than twice Koufax's career RSAA. Only one of Koufax's seasons would make it into Martinez's top 6.

[gyb13]

i don't think there's any question that pedro gets the nod here, even if people want to annoint him as this day's koufax.

of course, the clock is still ticking on him, so who knows where they'll end up relative to one another - that's the problem with making any 'career' statements about active players

[Wolf Hopper]

Martinez gets the nod.

[nyy26wc]

Originally Posted by gyb13

of course, the clock is still ticking on him, so who knows where they'll end up relative to one another - that's the problem with making any 'career' statements about active players

Martinez could have Jeff Weaver's 2003 season every year for the next 8 years and his RSAA wouldn't drop below Koufax's until late in year 8.

The career RSAA gap between Martinez and Koufax is, literally the same as the gap between Koufax and Weaver (until Weaver pitches again and lowers his figure even more).

Throw in the higher peak value and the landslide just grows.

[TimmyB]

Voted for Pedro, but will give a nod to Koufax for media relations.

[huskerdru]

I was gonna say this before Lee jumped in and did so very effectively, but it's Martinez, and it's not even close. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you could compare most ANYONE in the history of the game to Pedro, and he'll get the nod 99 out of 100 times. He's been injured and loudmouthed and whiny and all that other stuff that makes people question his dedication, reliability, and durability, but we are being treated to a pitching show like none before with Pedro. His MVP year (you know, the one in 1999 that they accidentally gave to Pudge ) was among the greatest of all time...then he goes and tops it the next season!!

[TGwynn19]

But what about the IP differences?? In Sandy's last 5 seasons he averaged 80 more IP than Pedro did 1998-2002. So in those 80 IP the Dodgers got Koufax and the Sox got spot starters.

[gyb13]

Originally Posted by nyy26wc

Martinez could have Jeff Weaver's 2003 season every year for the next 8 years and his RSAA wouldn't drop below Koufax's until late in year 8.

The career RSAA gap between Martinez and Koufax is, literally the same as the gap between Koufax and Weaver (until Weaver pitches again and lowers his figure even more).

Throw in the higher peak value and the landslide just grows.

agreed. what i meant and should have said after 'where they'll end up relative to one another will depend on the rest of pedro's career' is 'they may end up far enough that even the dumbest of talking heads won't dare make the comparison'

[KCBOOMER]

I'm just sitting looking at all the pennants and world series championships that Pedro has led his teams to.

[huskerdru]

Originally Posted by TGwynn19

But what about the IP differences?? In Sandy's last 5 seasons he averaged 80 more IP than Pedro did 1998-2002. So in those 80 IP the Dodgers got Koufax and the Sox got spot starters.

Well, there certainly is a disaparity, though it has nothing to do with IP per se - and the disparity probably isn't as great as you might think. Remember, Koufax pitched in a four-man rotation, so for a full, healthy season he would be expected to get 41-42 starts per season. Pedro, in the five-man rotation, would be expected to get about 35-36 starts per season. From 61-66 The Left Arm of God averaged just over 35 starts/season. Pedro, from 95-02 (throwing out his injury-riddled 2001, where he made only 18 starts) averages just a shade under 31. So yes, Pedro missed a slightly higher percentage of starts, but not a big difference. So, the Dodgers got about as many spot starts each season from 61-66 as the Red Sox did from 95-02. The key is IP and ERA relative to league average, which is reflected in Lee's RSAA numbers.

Part of the IP difference is also due to differences in philosophies between the two eras. We are all aware these days how careful most (with some very notable exceptions) clubs are with their prized arms. Pitchers rarely exceed 120 pitches, and typically are in the 90-110 range, which limits the number of total innings expected from a pitcher. Koufax regularly threw 125+ pitches. I read an interview with Koufax in which he related that during his rehab from injury one season, the club had him pitch a simulated game in which he threw 155 pitches!! Evidently the manager said he wanted to see how Koufax would do in the late innings of a game.

Add to all of this Pedro's edge in Adjusted ERA+, K/9IP, K/BB, and WHIP, and I still say it's Pedro by a healthy margin!

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

I'm just sitting looking at all the pennants and world series championships that Pedro has led his teams to.

I know here you're going with that - 'cause I've tried it too. Then people remind me about all the rings that Luis Sojo has.........

[huskerdru]

Originally Posted by KCBOOMER

I'm just sitting looking at all the pennants and world series championships that Pedro has led his teams to.

True enough, but not a fair criterion, IMHO. Don't blame Pedro for Dan Duquette's cluelessness. Sandy had Don Drysdale helping him anchor that Dodgers staff. Pedro has had Tim Wakefield, Mark Portugal, Jeff Fassero, Hideo Nomo, and Derek Lowe as the #2's in his years in Boston. Not exactly an intimidating group.